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Thread: Report shows how recession hit families [W:391, 502]

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    re: Report shows how recession hit families [W:391, 502]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    There just seems to be a lot of phony concern for the poor going on, but when the rubber hits the road, we generally get the 'eh, oh well' type of response from liberals.
    Don't know about others, but I have said I disagree with it. I work everyday trying to improve people's lives. I believe it education and training. But it does cost, and there has to be a willingness to put up the money.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    re: Report shows how recession hit families [W:391, 502]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I work everyday trying to improve people's lives.

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    re: Report shows how recession hit families [W:391, 502]

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryOldGuy View Post
    yep.
    ........

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    re: Report shows how recession hit families [W:391, 502]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    But you're not a socialist right?
    I am a pragmatic American without a self adopted ideology acting as a straight jacket limiting my options and choices.

    The main problem of the next few decades of the 21 century is not the various things we all argue about here.

    Consider this: For most of the 20th century, and even parts of the 19th century, a person could be of average of even below average intelligence and still be a productive, functioning and even valuable member of American society. Somebody could have an IQ of 80 or so, get a job in a factory, make a very decent wage, buy a house, get married and have a family and be a regular citizen. Because of union wages, they could get a new car every five years or so, go on an annual vacation even if only driving locally, even put their kids in the local catholic or private school if that was their wish.

    In the neighborhood I grew up in - Dearborn, Michigan in the Fifties and Sixties, there were lots of families like this and they all were productive people and responsible citizens who raised their families, paid their taxes and did what they were suppose to do to get the American Dream. This was a time of Ozzie & Harriet and Leave It to Beaver, of Eisenhower and JFK and America was prosperous and lots and lots of people - even the lower educated - shared in that prosperity and America was strong, healthy and the envy of the world.

    Lets face it folks, if you know anything about the standard IQ tests, half the population is at 100 or lower. Its great to say we all need to get more education and computer skills and be part of the 21st century technological revolution, but for many, its just not in the cards.

    Yeah - I can hear it right now - Haymarket is just another liberal who has no faith in people to succeed. Keep your cliches please. This must be a discussion about reality and not about silly ideologies.

    When we had an agrarian economy in the 18th and 19th century, there was a place and a job for almost everyone. Heck, when the Industrial Revolution took over in the mid to late 1800's we had to go elsewhere to import tens of millions of people to fuel the machines. The transition from a agricultural economy to an industrial economy increased the need for labor and increased the middle class.

    But we are now in an era where technology no longer needs as many people, particularly the below 100 IQ folks. How many peoople do we really need to be able to say "welcome to Walmart" or "you want fries with that?" And what do those jobs pay compared to the hi-low driver of the neighborhood I grew up in?

    Some economists are predicting a "jobless recovery". We see major corporations doing very well. We see the stock market making a big comeback and investors doing very well. We see those at the top doing very well. But we see lots of problems for lots of other people at the middle or lower who are not getting hired back and companies are very happy to buy machines instead of employing workers.

    As part of my job with the Michigan Legislature, I recently toured a engine plant where today they have one-fifth of the workers they had some twenty years ago and produce more than they did at that time. The workers at that plant - UAW members - took no wage increases for over a decade so the plant could retool and modernize to save jobs. The union accepted a two tier wage system and it now takes a full 13 years for a worker to get from starting wage to full wage. The name of the plant is Detroit Diesel.

    And in the time after that tour of Diesel I have toured more plants with acres and acres of parking lots that are virtually empty of the workers that used to park there and work there because they are no longer needed.

    I do not think these are rare or the exception to the national trend. In fact, I suspect they are part of the national trend.

    We live in a democratic republic where people can vote and pick their representatives in government. They in turn determine public policy including tax policy and entitlement programs and the like.

    So here is my question: what are we doing about this problem that seems to run contrary to building a prosperous and sustainable America for nearly all of us?

    And why is this something that nobody really seems to want to talk about or do anything about?

    What does it bode for America when more and more have to get by and less and less but those same people can become angry and bitter at not getting their piece of the American Dream?

    And what is a societal wide solution that we can apply to nearly everyone to get back the sort of prosperity that existed in decades past for nearly everyone?
    Last edited by haymarket; 08-31-13 at 07:57 AM.
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    re: Report shows how recession hit families [W:391, 502]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Pfffffft ...LOL !!!

    What a bunch of empty drek.

    The difference between people like you and me is I use truth to define my ideology, not the other way around.

    My ideology doesn't allow me to be taken in by empty promises and bumper stickr
    The difference is that you have an adopted set of beliefs that you call an ideology which confines you like a straight jacket. I do not since I look at things pragmatically and without those self imposed ideological blinders.

    This issue of employment is an excellent example of how ideology is failing you to look at reality.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    re: Report shows how recession hit families [W:391, 502]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Pfffffft ...LOL !!!

    What a bunch of empty drek.

    The difference between people like you and me is I use truth to define my ideology, not the other way around.

    My ideology doesn't allow me to be taken in by empty promises and bumper sticker slogans, it doesn't allow me to be taken in by empty plattitudes amd false narratives.

    It doesn't allow me to make Nation Crippling Dumbsh** decisions like voting for a Jr Senator with radical leftist tirs to be our President.

    It doesn't allow me to buy into the nonsense of blame and hyperbole that your post are known for.

    And my Son(s) will be taught the same way I was, to be proud of their heritage and of their Nation. To not expect handouts, and to know that anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT .

    They will inherit my work ethic, knowing ( if your ilk doesn't completely ruin everything by the time their old enough ) if they work hard, and keep their nose clean and have faith, anything is possible.

    They will be raised with high standards, by parents who value REAL education, ( not grades handed out because it's not " PC " to fail a moron ).

    They will understand what happened from 2008 to 2016, how the Democrats with their STUPID policies ruined so many lives. Guided so many people to chronic joblesness and dependency.

    They will be well aware of the criminals that called themselfs democrats and who ran our GSEs into bankruptcy costing the American people trillions.

    They will understand the innate corruption of the left and how their socialist policies have failed the world over.
    You totally miss the point. You have missed it by miles and miles and miles.

    America is a nation of over 300 million people. Its success is not determined by an individual, or a group of individuals or by even the majority of individuals. America must be a national success story from sea to shining sea that showers its blessings and protections upon nearly all who comprise it. There will always be successful individuals who because of intelligence, talent, ability and other traits are able to be successful and end up near the top of the social and economic pyramid. And if your son, or my son, or any of our family makes it - that is a good thing and we should be proud of that success.

    But even in the America of 1775 there were successful people and there lives were destroyed by revolution. The same for France.... the same for Russia ... the same for a whole list of nations where the middle collapsed or was never allowed to develop.

    We judge the success of America by the success of our people - not isolated individuals.

    ANd in a world where ones labor becomes increasingly worthless to the corporate system - what chance do the tens of millions have to be productive citizens while at the same time the old ideology of rugged individualism and corporatism is an albatross around our necks dragging us down?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    re: Report shows how recession hit families [W:391, 502]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Well, then I'll pose your own question back at ya....What is your solution? What are you going to do about it?
    You can be sure that it will involve the initiation of aggression*.

    * Violation of or damage to another person's body; or trespass upon, damage to, or taking of something owned by another.

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    re: Report shows how recession hit families [W:391, 502]

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    You can be sure that it will involve the initiation of aggression*.

    * Violation of or damage to another person's body; or trespass upon, damage to, or taking of something owned by another.
    Like collecting taxes?
    Like using the constitutionally approved power of eminent domain to promote advancement of society and the public good?
    Like municipal or local zoning ordinances?

    Yeah - really dangerously radical things.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    re: Report shows how recession hit families [W:391, 502]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Like collecting taxes?
    Like using the constitutionally approved power of eminent domain to promote advancement of society and the public good?
    Like municipal or local zoning ordinances?

    Yeah - really dangerously radical things.
    And they are all accomplished through the initiations of aggression*, which apparently is your solution to every problem.

    * Violation of or damage to another person's body; or trespass upon, damage to, or taking of something owned by another.

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    re: Report shows how recession hit families [W:391, 502]

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    And they are all accomplished through the initiations of aggression*, which apparently is your solution to every problem.

    * Violation of or damage to another person's body; or trespass upon, damage to, or taking of something owned by another.
    I simply live in the real world with real people who have a real government with real powers that flow from a real Constitution. Those who dwell in a imaginary wonderland of their own creation seem to have great trouble with that.

    And what is your particular solution to a brave new world where productive work for tens of millions of citizens is no longer a viable option and they are simply unnecessary to the success of the nation and are increasingly looked at as a drag and a liability on the economy and the nation?
    Last edited by haymarket; 08-31-13 at 11:00 AM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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