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Thread: Former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak has been released from prison

  1. #21
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    Re: Former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak has been released from prison

    Id be willing to bet money that more than a few Egyptians would be glad to have him back.

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    Re: Former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak has been released from prison

    If Obama had a father who didn't desert him, he'd look just like Hosni Mubarak.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak has been released from prison

    Wonder if Obama was smart enough to send him a couple of packs of smokes while he was in the slammer? Bad enough he turned his back on an American friend and jumped on that silly Arab Spring nonsense. Now what? Obama has managed to get everybody in Egypt to hate us. That took a lot of work.
    "“If we don’t deepen our ports all along the Gulf — places like Charleston, South Carolina; or Savannah, Georgia; or Jacksonville, Florida…” -Obama

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    Re: Former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak has been released from prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Educate us then...

    Rainman is spot on in terms of Mubarak bring a progressive when it came to social issues and religious tolerance, as for the West why would we oppose him? The guy brought peace and stability to the region and did whatever we told him to plus he actually worked with Israel. Yes Mubarak was many things but how is Egypt doing now? How is that multi billion tourist industry coping? Don't be surprised to see him put back in power by the people themselves.
    I already did up above, Parliament is not allowed to nominate a President or give someone that spot it has to be done via election which wasn't held until after he was already President.

    How would you feel if Obama was appointed President by Congress and then after appointed an election was held as a "informal" processes as we already had a President. I'd be pretty upset, I shouldn't be surprised but people who supposedly stand for freedom don't really mean it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nynaeve Meara View Post
    Yes, it is correct, the VP is not supposed to become President after the President dies.

    Go read the actual constitution, we bribed the military/government to name Mubarak President.


    The phrase in bold was not done because after being bribed and appointed Mubarak suspended the Constitution, which was unconstitutional but the military wasn't going to complain while receiving 200B+ in "aid"

    Egyptian constitution

    Their constitution is not like ours, don't assume it is.
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    Re: Former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak has been released from prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Nynaeve Meara View Post
    I already did up above, Parliament is not allowed to nominate a President or give someone that spot it has to be done via election which wasn't held until after he was already President.
    That’s not correct.

    In Message #16 in this thread, you objected with Hosni Mubarak’s becoming President on grounds that the Parliament speaker should have become acting President and that an election should have been held within 60 days after the vacancy in the office of President occurred.

    In Message #18, I provided excerpts from news stories indicating that the constitutional requirements were fulfilled:

    • The Speaker of Parliament (Sufi Abu Taleb) assumed temporary responsibilities as President on October 6, 1981 (the day President Sadat was assassinated).
    • Hosni Mubarak was elected President on October 13, just 7 days later (well within the 60-day requirement).

    Article 84 of the 1971 Constitution, which was in place at the time states:

    In case vacancy of the Presidential office or the permanent disability of the President of the Republic, the Speaker of the People’s Assembly shall temporarily assume the Presidency; and, if at that time, the People’s Assembly is already dissolved, the President of the Supreme Constitutional Court shall take over the Presidency, provided, however, that neither shall nominate himself for the Presidency, subject to abidance by the ban stipulated in paragraph 2 of Article 82.

    The People’s Assembly shall then proclaim the vacancy of the office of President. The President of the Republic shall be chosen within a maximum period of sixty days from the day the Presidential office becomes vacant.


    State Information Services Constitution of the Arab Republic of Egypt 1971

    Let’s take a closer look:

    In case vacancy of the Presidential office or the permanent disability of the President of the Republic, the Speaker of the People’s Assembly shall temporarily assume the Presidency…

    Fulfilled. Speaker Sufi Abu Taleb temporarily assumed the Presidency on October 6.

    and, if at that time, the People’s Assembly is already dissolved, the President of the Supreme Constitutional Court shall take over the Presidency…

    Not applicable. Parliament had not been dissolved at the time the vacancy occurred.

    … neither shall nominate himself for the Presidency…

    Fulfilled. Speaker Sufi Abu Taleb did not seek the Presidency. Notice also the language about nominating authority. That authority is limited only as it relates to the Speaker’s seeking the Presidency. Nothing in that Article or elsewhere states that Parliament is barred from nominating the President.

    The People’s Assembly shall then proclaim the vacancy of the office of President…

    Fulfilled. The vacancy was declared on October 6 when the Speaker temporarily assumed the responsibilities.

    The President of the Republic shall be chosen within a maximum period of sixty days from the day the Presidential office becomes vacant.

    Fulfilled. The election was held on October 13, seven days after the vacancy had occurred.

    Nothing in Article 84 or elsewhere in the constitution prohibits Parliament’s nomination of a President. The Constitution does prohibit certain things and does so expressly (prohibition on the Speaker’s seeking the Presidency). Indeed, Article 84 solely restricts the Speaker’s being nominated, meaning that Parliament has nominating authority that is limited only with regard to the Speaker. Given Mubarak’s role of Vice President and his increasing role as emissary for President Sadat in that capacity, he was the logical choice. His becoming President fully met the constitutional requirements set forth in Article 84.

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    Re: Former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak has been released from prison

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    That’s not correct.

    In Message #16 in this thread, you objected with Hosni Mubarak’s becoming President on grounds that the Parliament speaker should have become acting President and that an election should have been held within 60 days after the vacancy in the office of President occurred.

    In Message #18, I provided excerpts from news stories indicating that the constitutional requirements were fulfilled:

    • The Speaker of Parliament (Sufi Abu Taleb) assumed temporary responsibilities as President on October 6, 1981 (the day President Sadat was assassinated).
    • Hosni Mubarak was elected President on October 13, just 7 days later (well within the 60-day requirement).

    Article 84 of the 1971 Constitution, which was in place at the time states:

    In case vacancy of the Presidential office or the permanent disability of the President of the Republic, the Speaker of the People’s Assembly shall temporarily assume the Presidency; and, if at that time, the People’s Assembly is already dissolved, the President of the Supreme Constitutional Court shall take over the Presidency, provided, however, that neither shall nominate himself for the Presidency, subject to abidance by the ban stipulated in paragraph 2 of Article 82.

    The People’s Assembly shall then proclaim the vacancy of the office of President. The President of the Republic shall be chosen within a maximum period of sixty days from the day the Presidential office becomes vacant.


    State Information Services Constitution of the Arab Republic of Egypt 1971

    Let’s take a closer look:

    In case vacancy of the Presidential office or the permanent disability of the President of the Republic, the Speaker of the People’s Assembly shall temporarily assume the Presidency…

    Fulfilled. Speaker Sufi Abu Taleb temporarily assumed the Presidency on October 6.

    and, if at that time, the People’s Assembly is already dissolved, the President of the Supreme Constitutional Court shall take over the Presidency…

    Not applicable. Parliament had not been dissolved at the time the vacancy occurred.

    … neither shall nominate himself for the Presidency…

    Fulfilled. Speaker Sufi Abu Taleb did not seek the Presidency. Notice also the language about nominating authority. That authority is limited only as it relates to the Speaker’s seeking the Presidency. Nothing in that Article or elsewhere states that Parliament is barred from nominating the President.

    The People’s Assembly shall then proclaim the vacancy of the office of President…

    Fulfilled. The vacancy was declared on October 6 when the Speaker temporarily assumed the responsibilities.

    The President of the Republic shall be chosen within a maximum period of sixty days from the day the Presidential office becomes vacant.

    Fulfilled. The election was held on October 13, seven days after the vacancy had occurred.

    Nothing in Article 84 or elsewhere in the constitution prohibits Parliament’s nomination of a President. The Constitution does prohibit certain things and does so expressly (prohibition on the Speaker’s seeking the Presidency). Indeed, Article 84 solely restricts the Speaker’s being nominated, meaning that Parliament has nominating authority that is limited only with regard to the Speaker. Given Mubarak’s role of Vice President and his increasing role as emissary for President Sadat in that capacity, he was the logical choice. His becoming President fully met the constitutional requirements set forth in Article 84.
    You are missing the key point where the Parliament appointed Mubarak as President prior to the election which was unconstitutional at the time.

    You can keep claiming it was legal but it simply wasn't the election was held as an informal process due to the appointment of a President already that we put in power and turned into another dictator who suspended the constitution as one of his first acts in office.
    "I can't abide women who poke their noses into other people's business."
    “Men are strange. I think it has something to do with the hair on their chins.”

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    Re: Former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak has been released from prison

    When will we finally admit that that culture, that religion, that part of the world, is not capable of democracy?

    A peaceful dictator is about all we can hope for.

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    Re: Former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak has been released from prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Nynaeve Meara View Post
    You are missing the key point where the Parliament appointed Mubarak as President prior to the election which was unconstitutional at the time.
    Nynaeve,

    I'm not missing the point. Whatever one thinks of President Mubarak (and I believe his legacy is a mixed one), he assumed office in a fully constitutional manner.

    The news articles from that time make unequivocally clear that Parliament nominated Mubarak for the Presidency. It did not appoint him as acting or interim President. Instead, the Speaker assumed responsibility as acting President between the time of President Sadat's assassination and Mubarak's being sworn into office after having won the election.

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    Re: Former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak has been released from prison

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Nynaeve,

    I'm not missing the point. Whatever one thinks of President Mubarak (and I believe his legacy is a mixed one), he assumed office in a fully constitutional manner.

    The news articles from that time make unequivocally clear that Parliament nominated Mubarak for the Presidency. It did not appoint him as acting or interim President. Instead, the Speaker assumed responsibility as acting President between the time of President Sadat's assassination and Mubarak's being sworn into office after having won the election.
    They had no right to nominate/appoint him as President at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    When will we finally admit that that culture, that religion, that part of the world, is not capable of democracy?


    A peaceful dictator is about all we can hope for.
    If we'd keep our noses out of the area for more than 50 years I'm sure it could easily happen but that 1950s of the US MCarthyism has pretty much ruined that for us.
    "I can't abide women who poke their noses into other people's business."
    “Men are strange. I think it has something to do with the hair on their chins.”

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    Re: Former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak has been released from prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Nynaeve Meara View Post
    They had no right to nominate/appoint him as President at all.
    Nothing in Article 84 prohibits Parliament from doing so. The only prohibition is limited to the nomination of the Speaker, who assumes acting President responsibilities, for the Presidency. That's fact.

    If we'd keep our noses out of the area for more than 50 years I'm sure it could easily happen but that 1950s of the US MCarthyism has pretty much ruined that for us.
    I disagree. In my opinion, setting aside U.S. (not to mention, Soviet) activities in the area during the Cold War, one can't automatically make that assumption. Structural factors (historical experience, demographics/sectarian rivalries, culture, institutional setting, among many other internal variables) shape the environment. The environment has not been hospitable to democracy (liberal Western-style representative governance). The kinds of governments that have arisen or evolved are no accident. Even without a U.S. or Soviet role in the region during the Cold War, one probably would not have seen sustained democratic governance.

    The Bush Administration embraced a naïve assumption that authoritarian leaders were the reason democratic governance did not exist. Hence, it assumed that regime change in Iraq would lead to democracy and its post-war planning reflected that assumption. That didn't happen. The Iraqi government is evolving steadily in the direction of an illiberal one albeit with elections. Iran has a similar kind of government, highly illiberal with elections. Afghanistan, has a different structural framework. There, governance has traditionally been centered at the tribal level. There, the central government continues to have enormous difficulty exerting jurisdiction outside of Kabul and areas where the Pashtun tribe is the predominant group (President Karzai's tribe).

    The Obama Administration made a similar error. It correctly concluded that regime change would not automatically bring democratic rule. Where it erred was in assuming that populist uprisings against authoritarian regimes are democratic in nature. In many cases, be it Bahrain (put down by the Gulf Cooperation Council), Syria, etc., what one has witnessed is suppressed ethnic majorities seeking to topple minority-led authoritarian governments. A shift to majority rule does not automatically assure democratic governance. More than likely, one would witness new illiberal governments where the majority rules and minority influence is eroded. Deposed President Morsi had embarked on a course of accumulating ever more power and, had he remained in office, would very likely have evolved into an authoritarian-style ruler under which Egypt's non-Islamists (we're talking about political Islam, not non-Muslims) and religious minorities (namely the Coptic Christians) would have been largely shut out of a meaningful political role.

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