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Thread: NYPD Stop and Frisk Ruled Unconstitutional

  1. #21
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    Re: NYPD Stop and Frisk Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    From the NY Times a couple of days ago

    I haven't read the opinion yet but according to the article the judge came down pretty hard on the Bloomberg administration and the Police department.
    All I can say is it's about time.
    This law is a blatant violation of the 4th amendment. It should have been struck down when it was first created.

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
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    Re: NYPD Stop and Frisk Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    From the NY Times a couple of days ago

    I haven't read the opinion yet but according to the article the judge came down pretty hard on the Bloomberg administration and the Police department.
    All I can say is it's about time.
    Yes, it's about time that the rate at which young black men are being murdered picked up again. This will help a great deal. Congratulations.

    However, the judge didn't strike down stop and frisk. (Especially since the SCOTUS has upheld the practice.) She just wants to see more white people and little old ladies frisked, I guess.

    The evidence that police are frisking people in a "racially discriminatory" manner is that more blacks are stopped, of course. But then more blacks are involved in crime, a fact to which the judge is willfully blind.

    I'd say that the blood of young men will be on her hands, but I don't think her ruling will survive appeal.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

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    Re: NYPD Stop and Frisk Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    At question is the initial justification for the stop. Not the police' ability to do a protective pat down. Without a reasonable suspicion the stop itself is unconstitutional.
    You're so right.

    First, there is no stop and frisk "law" per se. Stop and question is a legal procedure, not a law and not even a NYC police. So the whole concept of bringing it before a judge is silly.
    If a police officer has reasonable suspicion that someone did, is or will engage in a crime he can stop and question the suspect. If he feels there is a specific threat from a weapon or other concealed hazard, he can pat him down to protect himself. Anything less than that, the police officer is violating the law.
    A police officer's right to do this doesn't come from NYC policy, it comes from the Constitution and the NYS Criminal Procedure Law.

    So what did the judge's ruling accomplish?
    Stated that it's illegal for the police to violate the correct procedure? That was already known.
    State that the police can't conduct legal stop-and-question stops? No, the judge can't do that.

    So what exactly was the point of all of this?
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    NYPD Stop and Frisk Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Yes, it's about time that the rate at which young black men are being murdered picked up again. This will help a great deal. Congratulations.

    However, the judge didn't strike down stop and frisk. (Especially since the SCOTUS has upheld the practice.) She just wants to see more white people and little old ladies frisked, I guess.

    The evidence that police are frisking people in a "racially discriminatory" manner is that more blacks are stopped, of course. But then more blacks are involved in crime, a fact to which the judge is willfully blind.

    I'd say that the blood of young men will be on her hands, but I don't think her ruling will survive appeal.
    Has there been one shred of evidence presented anywhere pointing to stop and frisk as having played any part in the reduction in crime because I sure as hell haven't seen it.

    And even if there is that does not justify the technique which the judge in fact did called Unconstitutional in its implementation in New York.

    In one of the greater ironies here police commissioner Ray Kelly is crowing about the fact the
    Judge found that 10 of the 19 specific stops she looked at were Constitutional. I guess Mr Kelly doesn't realize that that means that just under half the stops were not constitutional. Extrapolate that out to the 4.5 million stops the police have made and you get millions of 4th amendment violations.

    That's why she stated in her opinion that the NYPDs violations of the 4th were widespread. By any measure that is a piss poor record.
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    Re: NYPD Stop and Frisk Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Has there been one shred of evidence presented anywhere pointing to stop and frisk as having played any part in the reduction in crime because I sure as hell haven't seen it.
    Of course it has reduced murders. Why do you want to obfuscate the issue by denying the obvious? Is your ideology that important to you, that you will sacrifice lives to it?

    But it's much ado about not much, because this judge will have scorn poured on her head by the appeals court.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

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    Re: NYPD Stop and Frisk Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Crime rates have been dropping in New York (and the rest of the country) for
    decades. It's not like crime rates dropped at a faster rate than they dropped pre-stop and frisk.

    I also want to point out...I wonder how many individuals walking in certain neighborhoods were put in jail or charged for carrying small amounts of say marijuana while people in other neighborhoods weren't...
    Huh ? MARIJUANA IS ILLEGAL IN NY.

    If you can't do the time....

    And in places like Chicago, Detroit and Kansas City MURDER rates are up.

    No stop and frisk there is there, or conceal carry.

  7. #27
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    Re: NYPD Stop and Frisk Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    The evidence that police are frisking people in a "racially discriminatory" manner is that more blacks are stopped, of course. But then more blacks are involved in crime, a fact to which the judge is willfully blind.
    Isn't it somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy to conclude that "more blacks are involved in crime" if in the first instance more blacks are stopped than whites?
    (avatar by Thomas Nast)

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    Re: NYPD Stop and Frisk Ruled Unconstitutional

    The "procedure" or law was an outrageous breach of individual privacy and was being performed at will without the slightest probable cause or reasonable suspicion. It's blatantly unconstitutional, and frankly I'm shocked New Yorkers didn't rise up en masse when such a draconian procedure was introduced. Absolutely unacceptable.

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    Re: NYPD Stop and Frisk Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Krhazy View Post
    Isn't it somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy to conclude that "more blacks are involved in crime" if in the first instance more blacks are stopped than whites?
    Well, it's hard to ignore all the black corpses. They didn't appear just because of racial profiling. Nice try though. Thanks for playing.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

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    Re: NYPD Stop and Frisk Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Well, it's hard to ignore all the black corpses. They didn't appear just because of racial profiling. Nice try though. Thanks for playing.
    Murder represents a small portion of overall crime, and stop-and-frisk has shown very little utility for apprehending murderers. Most arrests stemming from stop-and-frisk encounters are for marijuana possession. Five times as many whites as blacks report having used an illegal substance, and yet 85% of those arrested for marijuana possession under stop-and-frisk were black. Are more blacks using illegal drugs, or are they just being arrested more often? I'm not "playing" -- I don't know the answer, because it's impossible to guess how many people are committing crimes and not being arrested. But I do think it is more complicated than you made it sound. You're welcome.
    (avatar by Thomas Nast)

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