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Thread: State of Emergancy declared in Egypt!

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    Re: State of Emergancy declared in Egypt!

    For those who are interested, Reuters reported:

    Israel is urging the West to stick by Egypt's army in its confrontation with the Muslim Brotherhood, quietly echoing warnings by U.S. regional ally Saudi Arabia against putting pressure on the military-backed government.

    "Israel shares its views with the U.S. and some EU (European Union) countries, and those views are to give priority to restoring stability," a senior Israeli official said on Monday.


    Concerned Israel quietly backs Egypt's military | Reuters

    I believe Israel and Saudi Arabia, both of whom have a far more intimate understanding of Egypt than the U.S. and both of whom have larger interests in Egypt's evolution are suggesting the best course possible. Rather than tilting at windmills of illusions of democracy, the U.S. should also throw its weight behind the development of a stable government with that government being charged with Egypt's future political evolution. If the Muslim Brotherhood wishes to join in a constructive fashion, the door should be open. If not, the U.S. should not try to impose a Muslim Brotherhood role on Egypt. At the same time, the U.S. should refrain from impulsive and reckless calls to sever foreign aid to Egypt.

    Egypt is an important American partner. It is a relatively moderate society (witness how the public rose against the Morsi regime when that government tried to consolidate power and take Egypt on a path incompatible with the public's more moderate stances). It has been a reliable partner for peace. It has helped promote stability in a region that has had a lot of instability. The Suez Canal remains an important waterway.

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    Re: State of Emergancy declared in Egypt!

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    For those who are interested, Reuters reported:

    Israel is urging the West to stick by Egypt's army in its confrontation with the Muslim Brotherhood, quietly echoing warnings by U.S. regional ally Saudi Arabia against putting pressure on the military-backed government.

    "Israel shares its views with the U.S. and some EU (European Union) countries, and those views are to give priority to restoring stability," a senior Israeli official said on Monday.


    Concerned Israel quietly backs Egypt's military | Reuters

    I believe Israel and Saudi Arabia, both of whom have a far more intimate understanding of Egypt than the U.S. and both of whom have larger interests in Egypt's evolution are suggesting the best course possible. Rather than tilting at windmills of illusions of democracy, the U.S. should also throw its weight behind the development of a stable government with that government being charged with Egypt's future political evolution. If the Muslim Brotherhood wishes to join in a constructive fashion, the door should be open. If not, the U.S. should not try to impose a Muslim Brotherhood role on Egypt. At the same time, the U.S. should refrain from impulsive and reckless calls to sever foreign aid to Egypt.

    Egypt is an important American partner. It is a relatively moderate society (witness how the public rose against the Morsi regime when that government tried to consolidate power and take Egypt on a path incompatible with the public's more moderate stances). It has been a reliable partner for peace. It has helped promote stability in a region that has had a lot of instability. The Suez Canal remains an important waterway.


    Heya DS.....More good news then. Seems our politicians needed that ding to come in from the Saud and Israel. As today they were talking about how our politicians are at odds over funding Egypt.

    Still at this time.....there is no reason that we need to be sending funds there. They have made up 12 Billion just from the Saud, Qatar, and the UAE. They are set to get a loan thru the IMF. Plus I do believe France stated they would give out money too. But that was going back to when Sarkosy was running things.

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    Re: State of Emergancy declared in Egypt!

    Quote Originally Posted by zstep18 View Post
    Fascists during WW2 were part of armies of nations. There was a clear enemy during WW2. Terrorism has no real army or nation. Therefore, you can't really compare the two.
    They became parts of armies of nations. Prior to that, they were nothing more than civilian thugs.

    Today, the MB's marched nuns through the streets of Cairo and burned churches. Reminds you of Kristalnact, huh?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: State of Emergancy declared in Egypt!

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Nevermind that after they got elected, they set about installing a dictatorship, right? The Nazis were democratically elected.

    Seeing how the MB's acted one elected, there's reason to believe that they rigged the election.
    Who said nevermind? That's why Morsi fell -- he ignored the rest of the electorate. I pointed that out.

    Jesus, you guys are on autopilot.

    Make up your mind -- are you happy that Obama isn't cracking down on the military or are you upset. You tea party types care all over the map.

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    Re: State of Emergancy declared in Egypt!

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    They became parts of armies of nations. Prior to that, they were nothing more than civilian thugs.

    Today, the MB's marched nuns through the streets of Cairo and burned churches. Reminds you of Kristalnact, huh?
    So you're happy Obama is cooperating with the Egyptian military. Or not

    Make up your tea party mind!

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    Re: State of Emergancy declared in Egypt!

    Quote Originally Posted by ItAin'tFree View Post
    LOL.

    Liberals are always good for laughs. Problems is they make my ribs hurt I laugh so hard at the way they try to twist things around to avoid leadership, avoid blame and avoid what they have already done themselves.

    Where's the lecture from Obama on saving innocent lives like we heard on his Libya misadventure. You remember don't you? That's where he said thousands of people would be killed if we didn't get involved, like what's happening in Egypt now. Remember one of the ways we got involved? Bombing Libya.

    But hey, what's a few facts. If I tell to many, it will screw up your story.
    So you're happy Obama isn't ending cooperation with the Egyptian military? Or you're not? Or you don't know.

    Your brain on Obamaphobia. It's a sight to see.

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    Re: State of Emergancy declared in Egypt!

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Who said nevermind? That's why Morsi fell -- he ignored the rest of the electorate. I pointed that out.

    Jesus, you guys are on autopilot.

    Make up your mind -- are you happy that Obama isn't cracking down on the military or are you upset. You tea party types care all over the map.
    Ohhhhhh, so now it's OK that the army ousted Morsi? Swaying which ever way Obama's wind blows...lol!
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: State of Emergancy declared in Egypt!

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    So you're happy Obama isn't ending cooperation with the Egyptian military? Or you're not? Or you don't know.

    Your brain on Obamaphobia. It's a sight to see.
    Obama said it's ok to be warm and fuzzy about the Egyptian army, so you're going to roll with it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: State of Emergancy declared in Egypt!

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Heya DS.....More good news then. Seems our politicians needed that ding to come in from the Saud and Israel. As today they were talking about how our politicians are at odds over funding Egypt.

    Still at this time.....there is no reason that we need to be sending funds there. They have made up 12 Billion just from the Saud, Qatar, and the UAE. They are set to get a loan thru the IMF. Plus I do believe France stated they would give out money too. But that was going back to when Sarkosy was running things.
    I believe the largest share of U.S. assistance is defense-related. However, IMO, the more important question is not whether Egypt can do without U.S. aid, but what a withdrawal of that aid signals to Egypt's embattled transitional government about U.S. reliability. If the transitional government concludes that the U.S. is unreliable, that would free it to tilt toward other partners. China might be one candidate. Russia might be another, especially as Egypt might afford it the first strategic opportunity to begin rebuilding Mideast influence since it lost most of its influence during the 1970s on account of skillful U.S. diplomacy and application of power.

    Unfortunately, the U.S. is devoid of a foreign policy strategy. It appears to lack a big picture view of geopolitics (that extends to the White House and many in the GOP i.e. Senators McCain and Graham). As a result, its foreign policy is increasingly reactive, when a proactive policy is urgently needed. In the midst of chaos where U.S. major interests are at stake--Egypt is the real deal, Syria is not--a firm, organized response is essential. In contrast, vacillation, hesitation, or eratic seemingly impulsive oscillation is not.

    During much of the 2000s, the neoconservative movement dismissed realists' seeming refusal to advocate democracy over stability in the Mideast. Events now have demonstrated that the realists were right. There was no real contest. And the outcome has occured at high cost to the U.S.

    A careful reading of history would have avoided such an outcome. But history seems to have been displaced by the fad de jour. Whether one is dealing with Afghanistan or Iraq (both areas where the risk of insurgency was extremely high and for which planning should have been done beforehand, not after insurgencies erupted) or elsewhere in sectarian societies, a careful reading of history could have offered a sound foreign policy foundation. In other words, protests that the U.S. could only react to events in the Mideast ring hollow. The U.S. is only in a reactive position, because it failed to have the foresight to examine history, identify its key interests, and set forth a cohernt vision for advancing/sustaining those interests.

    As far as the Mideast is concerned, a careful reading of history could only have led one to understand that the authoritarian regimes that populated much of the Mideast were no accident. They are the result of structural factors (cultural, historical, institutional, and sectarian rivalries). A "strong" government was the only kind that could gain long-term stability in the midst of ethnic and religious rivalries. Any move toward liberalization necessarily had to be gradual and cautious, allowing time for civil society to begin to emerge, institutions to develop, and experience in increasingly representative government to accumulate. Revolution would merely topple leaders. Absent a favorable structural environment, protodemocratic experiments would lurch toward illiberal outcomes. One witnessed that in Iraq with the emergence of a government that is largely of, by, and for the Shia at the expense of Iraq's ethnic and religious minorities (and increasingly tilting toward Iran). One witnessed it in Egypt where the Muslim Brotherhood tried to exploit its electoral outcome to disregard the judicial branch and accumulate a monopoly on power far beyond what the more moderate Egyptian populace would accept (forgetting, of course, that the military never abandoned its central role as a guarantor of sorts).

    Stability, with gradual reform, is probably the most realistic course one could expect. The absence of a coherent foreign policy strategy has already eroded U.S. influence in Egypt, but the damage is not irreparable. But additional short-sighted moves to withhold on commitments can produce an outcome that would lead to long-term damage. Not surprisingly, both Israel and Saudi Arabia are trying to get the U.S. to apply the brakes on its runaway, reactive responses. Meanwhile, should long-term damage be inflicted, one should not be too surprised if others exploit that outcome for their own advantage.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 08-19-13 at 11:27 PM.

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    Re: State of Emergancy declared in Egypt!

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I believe the largest share of U.S. assistance is defense-related. However, IMO, the more important question is not whether Egypt can do without U.S. aid, but what a withdrawal of that aid signals to Egypt's embattled transitional government about U.S. reliability. If the transitional government concludes that the U.S. is unreliable, that would free it to tilt toward other partners. China might be one candidate. Russia might be another, especially as Egypt might afford it the first strategic opportunity to begin rebuilding Mideast influence since it lost most of its influence during the 1970s on account of skillful U.S. diplomacy and application of power.

    Unfortunately, the U.S. is devoid of a foreign policy strategy. It appears to lack a big picture view of geopolitics (that extends to the White House and many in the GOP i.e. Senators McCain and Graham). As a result, its foreign policy is increasingly reactive, when a proactive policy is urgently needed. In the midst of chaos where U.S. major interests are at stake--Egypt is the real deal, Syria is not--a firm, organized response is essential. In contrast, vacillation, hesitation, and eratic seemingly impulsive oscillation is not.

    During much of the 2000s, the neoconservative movement dismissed realists' seeming refusal to advocate democracy over stability in the Mideast. Events now have demonstrated that the realists were right. There was no real contest. And the outcome has occured at high cost to the U.S.

    A careful reading of history would have avoided such an outcome. But history seems to have been displaced by the fad de jour. Whether one is dealing with Afghanistan or Iraq (where the risk of insurgency was extremely high) or elsewhere in sectarian societies, a careful reading of history could have offered a sound foreign policy foundation. In other words, protests that the U.S. could only react to events in the Mideast ring hollow. The U.S. is only in a reactive position, because it failed to have the foresight to examine history, identify its key interests, and set forth a cohernt vision for advancing/sustaining those interests.

    As far as the Mideast is concerned, a careful reading of history could only have led one to understand that the authoritarian regimes that populated much of the Mideast were no accident. They are the result of structural factors (cultural, historical, institutional, and sectarian rivalries). A "strong" government was the only kind that could gain long-term stability in the midst of ethnic and religious rivalries. Any move toward liberalization necessarily had to be gradual and cautious, allowing time for civil society to begin to emerge, institutions to develop, and experience in increasingly representative government to accumulate. Revolution would merely topple leaders. Absent a favorable structural environment, protodemocratic experiments would lurch toward illiberal outcomes. One witnessed that in Iraq with the emergence of a government that is largely of, by, and for the Shia at the expense of Iraq's ethnic and religious minorities (and increasingly tilting toward Iran). One witnessed it in Egypt where the Muslim Brotherhood tried to exploit its electoral outcome to disregard the judicial branch and accumulate a monopoly on power far beyond what the more moderate Egyptian populace would accept (forgetting, of course, that the military never abandoned its central role as a guarantor of sorts).

    Stability, with gradual reform, is probably the most realistic course one could expect. The absence of a coherent foreign policy strategy has already eroded U.S. influence in Egypt, but the damage is not irreparable. But additional short-sighted moves to withhold on commitments can push to an outcome that would lead to long-term damage. Not surprisingly, both Israel and Saudi Arabia are trying to get the U.S. to apply the breaks on its runaway, reactive responses. Meanwhile, should long-term damage be inflicted, one should not be too surprised if others exploit that outcome for their own advantage.
    Yep DS.....this is where the problem has been. Same deal with Asia. Going back to Clinton. Which leaving these guys to always be picked to serve on the same committees when they have been wrong from the beginning lead to where we are. With those in Office that really have no idea who they are dealing with.

    Many look to McCain as his reputation precedes him.....but that doesn't mean Johnny Quest ever had a clue on seeing what the overall picture was. Not that he was ever able to. Even while serving.

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