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State of Emergancy declared in Egypt!

LOL.

Liberals are always good for laughs. Problems is they make my ribs hurt I laugh so hard at the way they try to twist things around to avoid leadership, avoid blame and avoid what they have already done themselves.

Where's the lecture from Obama on saving innocent lives like we heard on his Libya misadventure. You remember don't you? That's where he said thousands of people would be killed if we didn't get involved, like what's happening in Egypt now. Remember one of the ways we got involved? Bombing Libya.

But hey, what's a few facts. If I tell to many, it will screw up your story.

So you're happy Obama isn't ending cooperation with the Egyptian military? Or you're not? Or you don't know.

Your brain on Obamaphobia. It's a sight to see.
 
Who said nevermind? That's why Morsi fell -- he ignored the rest of the electorate. I pointed that out.

Jesus, you guys are on autopilot.

Make up your mind -- are you happy that Obama isn't cracking down on the military or are you upset. You tea party types care all over the map.

Ohhhhhh, so now it's OK that the army ousted Morsi? Swaying which ever way Obama's wind blows...lol!
 
So you're happy Obama isn't ending cooperation with the Egyptian military? Or you're not? Or you don't know.

Your brain on Obamaphobia. It's a sight to see.

Obama said it's ok to be warm and fuzzy about the Egyptian army, so you're going to roll with it?
 
Heya DS.....More good news then. Seems our politicians needed that ding to come in from the Saud and Israel. As today they were talking about how our politicians are at odds over funding Egypt.

Still at this time.....there is no reason that we need to be sending funds there. They have made up 12 Billion just from the Saud, Qatar, and the UAE. They are set to get a loan thru the IMF. Plus I do believe France stated they would give out money too. But that was going back to when Sarkosy was running things.

I believe the largest share of U.S. assistance is defense-related. However, IMO, the more important question is not whether Egypt can do without U.S. aid, but what a withdrawal of that aid signals to Egypt's embattled transitional government about U.S. reliability. If the transitional government concludes that the U.S. is unreliable, that would free it to tilt toward other partners. China might be one candidate. Russia might be another, especially as Egypt might afford it the first strategic opportunity to begin rebuilding Mideast influence since it lost most of its influence during the 1970s on account of skillful U.S. diplomacy and application of power.

Unfortunately, the U.S. is devoid of a foreign policy strategy. It appears to lack a big picture view of geopolitics (that extends to the White House and many in the GOP i.e. Senators McCain and Graham). As a result, its foreign policy is increasingly reactive, when a proactive policy is urgently needed. In the midst of chaos where U.S. major interests are at stake--Egypt is the real deal, Syria is not--a firm, organized response is essential. In contrast, vacillation, hesitation, or eratic seemingly impulsive oscillation is not.

During much of the 2000s, the neoconservative movement dismissed realists' seeming refusal to advocate democracy over stability in the Mideast. Events now have demonstrated that the realists were right. There was no real contest. And the outcome has occured at high cost to the U.S.

A careful reading of history would have avoided such an outcome. But history seems to have been displaced by the fad de jour. Whether one is dealing with Afghanistan or Iraq (both areas where the risk of insurgency was extremely high and for which planning should have been done beforehand, not after insurgencies erupted) or elsewhere in sectarian societies, a careful reading of history could have offered a sound foreign policy foundation. In other words, protests that the U.S. could only react to events in the Mideast ring hollow. The U.S. is only in a reactive position, because it failed to have the foresight to examine history, identify its key interests, and set forth a cohernt vision for advancing/sustaining those interests.

As far as the Mideast is concerned, a careful reading of history could only have led one to understand that the authoritarian regimes that populated much of the Mideast were no accident. They are the result of structural factors (cultural, historical, institutional, and sectarian rivalries). A "strong" government was the only kind that could gain long-term stability in the midst of ethnic and religious rivalries. Any move toward liberalization necessarily had to be gradual and cautious, allowing time for civil society to begin to emerge, institutions to develop, and experience in increasingly representative government to accumulate. Revolution would merely topple leaders. Absent a favorable structural environment, protodemocratic experiments would lurch toward illiberal outcomes. One witnessed that in Iraq with the emergence of a government that is largely of, by, and for the Shia at the expense of Iraq's ethnic and religious minorities (and increasingly tilting toward Iran). One witnessed it in Egypt where the Muslim Brotherhood tried to exploit its electoral outcome to disregard the judicial branch and accumulate a monopoly on power far beyond what the more moderate Egyptian populace would accept (forgetting, of course, that the military never abandoned its central role as a guarantor of sorts).

Stability, with gradual reform, is probably the most realistic course one could expect. The absence of a coherent foreign policy strategy has already eroded U.S. influence in Egypt, but the damage is not irreparable. But additional short-sighted moves to withhold on commitments can produce an outcome that would lead to long-term damage. Not surprisingly, both Israel and Saudi Arabia are trying to get the U.S. to apply the brakes on its runaway, reactive responses. Meanwhile, should long-term damage be inflicted, one should not be too surprised if others exploit that outcome for their own advantage.
 
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I believe the largest share of U.S. assistance is defense-related. However, IMO, the more important question is not whether Egypt can do without U.S. aid, but what a withdrawal of that aid signals to Egypt's embattled transitional government about U.S. reliability. If the transitional government concludes that the U.S. is unreliable, that would free it to tilt toward other partners. China might be one candidate. Russia might be another, especially as Egypt might afford it the first strategic opportunity to begin rebuilding Mideast influence since it lost most of its influence during the 1970s on account of skillful U.S. diplomacy and application of power.

Unfortunately, the U.S. is devoid of a foreign policy strategy. It appears to lack a big picture view of geopolitics (that extends to the White House and many in the GOP i.e. Senators McCain and Graham). As a result, its foreign policy is increasingly reactive, when a proactive policy is urgently needed. In the midst of chaos where U.S. major interests are at stake--Egypt is the real deal, Syria is not--a firm, organized response is essential. In contrast, vacillation, hesitation, and eratic seemingly impulsive oscillation is not.

During much of the 2000s, the neoconservative movement dismissed realists' seeming refusal to advocate democracy over stability in the Mideast. Events now have demonstrated that the realists were right. There was no real contest. And the outcome has occured at high cost to the U.S.

A careful reading of history would have avoided such an outcome. But history seems to have been displaced by the fad de jour. Whether one is dealing with Afghanistan or Iraq (where the risk of insurgency was extremely high) or elsewhere in sectarian societies, a careful reading of history could have offered a sound foreign policy foundation. In other words, protests that the U.S. could only react to events in the Mideast ring hollow. The U.S. is only in a reactive position, because it failed to have the foresight to examine history, identify its key interests, and set forth a cohernt vision for advancing/sustaining those interests.

As far as the Mideast is concerned, a careful reading of history could only have led one to understand that the authoritarian regimes that populated much of the Mideast were no accident. They are the result of structural factors (cultural, historical, institutional, and sectarian rivalries). A "strong" government was the only kind that could gain long-term stability in the midst of ethnic and religious rivalries. Any move toward liberalization necessarily had to be gradual and cautious, allowing time for civil society to begin to emerge, institutions to develop, and experience in increasingly representative government to accumulate. Revolution would merely topple leaders. Absent a favorable structural environment, protodemocratic experiments would lurch toward illiberal outcomes. One witnessed that in Iraq with the emergence of a government that is largely of, by, and for the Shia at the expense of Iraq's ethnic and religious minorities (and increasingly tilting toward Iran). One witnessed it in Egypt where the Muslim Brotherhood tried to exploit its electoral outcome to disregard the judicial branch and accumulate a monopoly on power far beyond what the more moderate Egyptian populace would accept (forgetting, of course, that the military never abandoned its central role as a guarantor of sorts).

Stability, with gradual reform, is probably the most realistic course one could expect. The absence of a coherent foreign policy strategy has already eroded U.S. influence in Egypt, but the damage is not irreparable. But additional short-sighted moves to withhold on commitments can push to an outcome that would lead to long-term damage. Not surprisingly, both Israel and Saudi Arabia are trying to get the U.S. to apply the breaks on its runaway, reactive responses. Meanwhile, should long-term damage be inflicted, one should not be too surprised if others exploit that outcome for their own advantage.

Yep DS.....this is where the problem has been. Same deal with Asia. Going back to Clinton. Which leaving these guys to always be picked to serve on the same committees when they have been wrong from the beginning lead to where we are. With those in Office that really have no idea who they are dealing with.

Many look to McCain as his reputation precedes him.....but that doesn't mean Johnny Quest ever had a clue on seeing what the overall picture was. Not that he was ever able to. Even while serving.
 
Yep DS.....this is where the problem has been. Same deal with Asia. Going back to Clinton. Which leaving these guys to always be picked to serve on the same committees when they have been wrong from the beginning lead to where we are. With those in Office that really have no idea who they are dealing with.

Many look to McCain as his reputation precedes him.....but that doesn't mean Johnny Quest ever had a clue on seeing what the overall picture was. Not that he was ever able to. Even while serving.

I agree. Unfortunately, the depth of U.S. expertise in foreign policy seems unusually shallow in recent years. As a result, popular uprisings are caricatured into democratic movements when, in fact, in much of the Mideast, the uprisings are sectarian movements.

In terms of Senator McCain, good military skills/courage are not the same thing as strategic geopolitical thinking/risk assessment. Some military people have an abundance of both. Others don't. Senator McCain's support and then opposition of aid to Egypt is eerily reminiscent of his predebate panic in 2008 where he said he would postpone his debate participation, only to reverse himself afterward. That kind of zig-zagging is no better than the White House's hesitation. Both responses fail to provide the kind of firmness and certainty needed to help Egypt manage its crisis and they depreciate the nation's potential to shape an outcome consistent with its interests.
 
I agree. Unfortunately, the depth of U.S. expertise in foreign policy seems unusually shallow in recent years. As a result, popular uprisings are caricatured into democratic movements when, in fact, in much of the Mideast, the uprisings are sectarian movements.

In terms of Senator McCain, good military skills/courage are not the same thing as strategic geopolitical thinking/risk assessment. Some military people have an abundance of both. Others don't. Senator McCain's support and then opposition of aid to Egypt is eerily reminiscent of his predebate panic in 2008 where he said he would postpone his debate participation, only to reverse himself afterward. That kind of zig-zagging is no better than the White House's hesitation. Both responses fail to provide the kind of firmness and certainty needed to help Egypt manage its crisis and they depreciate the nation's potential to shape an outcome consistent with its interests.

That's Right.....not democratic movements in the first place. But sectarian. I have always disagreed with just handing Countries over to the Sunni to run. Whoever thought of that policy in the first place.....was wrong from the get go. Much of this comes to listening to a lot of what our allies have to say. Rather than ourselves working it from baseline.
 
Yesterday, the structure of U.S. assistance to Egypt came up. FWIW, Reuters published an account that provides a breakdown of U.S. aid:

Military assistance: $1.3 billion
Economic assistance: $250 million

Analysis: With Gulf aid, Egypt economy can limp through crisis | Reuters

Then there is Qatar, the UAE, and the Saud that have given 12 billion to Egypt. Plus they are getting a loan thru the IMF. Which will be over 450 Million.

Definitely tops what we were sending huh.
 
Freedoms whatever
you tell their asses it is, right?[/
QUOTE]

Lol....No it's existence under a Islamic fundamentalist theocracy.

You can't honestly be making the case that the Muslim Brotherhood was a "Freedom" loving orginization can you ?
I mean you can't honestly be that Naive can you ?

Freedom to you is a mysogonistic culture that limits personal choice ?

How ridiculous.
 
Lol....No it's existence under a Islamic fundamentalist theocracy.

You can't honestly be making the case that the Muslim Brotherhood was a "Freedom" loving orginization can you ?
I mean you can't honestly be that Naive can you ?

Freedom to you is a mysogonistic culture that limits personal choice ?

How ridiculous.

Freedom to me is being able to make your own decisions and then living with the consequences of those decisions, thus taking responsibility for them.

If people make stupid decisions that harm them, so be it. Freedom's a bitch. :shrug:
 
Freedom to me is being able to make your own decisions and then living with the consequences of those decisions, thus taking responsibility for them.

If people make stupid decisions that harm them, so be it. Freedom's a bitch. :shrug:


Well that's just skippy since the MB isn't concerned with you being able to make your own decisions. Just like they don't allow people in Egypt to make their own decisions.

You weren't attempting to say the MB was about giving average people Freedom to make their own choices now.....were you?
 
Well that's just skippy since the MB isn't concerned with you being able to make your own decisions. Just like they don't allow people in Egypt to make their own decisions.

Wasn't it the Egyptians' decision to give the MB power? Now they are dealing with the consequences of their decision. :shrug:

You weren't attempting to say the MB was about giving average people Freedom to make their own choices now.....were you?

Of course not. Anyone who actually read what I have written could have told you that, though.
 
Wasn't it the Egyptians' decision to give the MB power? Now they are dealing with the consequences of their decision. :shrug:



Of course not. Anyone who actually read what I have written could have told you that, though.


Well they did hold an Election.....but you don't think the people of Egypt really decided to give the MB power now or that they had a way to stop the MB from rigging the election and its process.

Oh I read what you had to say.....I just was making sure you knew what you were saying when hanging out where the Big Boys Play. This isn't like domestic issues and just dealing with those who you live around.
rolleyes.png
 
Well they did hold an Election.....but you don't think the people of Egypt really decided to give the MB power now or that they had a way to stop the MB from rigging the election and its process.

All part of the decisions they made. Do you think that elections are the ONLY way that people make choices?

Oh I read what you had to say.....

Did you understand it?
 
All part of the decisions they made. Do you think that elections are the ONLY way that people make choices?



Did you understand it?


How was it part of the decisions they made, if they never wanted them in the first place. Not allowed to bring that out to the table so to speak. Do you think their women wanted to vote. That it was a decision that they made themselves? Think they made that choice?

Well I did ask you to clarify what you meant.....but the real question is.....do you understand how things really work where the Big Boys play? See that will make it easier for yourself if you actually have some comprehension as to how things work in the Big Bad World.

Kinda like that bit on the women of the MB and being allowed to vote and all. Know what I mean?
rolleyes.png
 
How was it part of the decisions they made...

Did they not overthrow their previous government?

Well I did ask you to clarify what you meant.....

Yet oddly, in defiance of any such explanations, you still seem to think it meant something entirely different.

but the real question is.....do you understand how things really work where the Big Boys play?

Are the "big boys" mentally retarded?
 
Did they not overthrow their previous government?



Yet oddly, in defiance of any such explanations, you still seem to think it meant something entirely different.



Are the "big boys" mentally retarded?


Sure they did.....did the women get to vote for who they wanted to? What about those that are Gay? Did they get to vote for who they wanted to?


I couldn't say for sure.....unless I was giving one the 3rd degree.
 
Sure they did

So these are some of the consequences of those actions. :shrug:

It's not a smooth road. Most revolutions are followed shortly thereafter by a civil war. That's just how it works in the "big bad world". You can't prevent it, you can only delay it (like it was postponed in the US).

I continue to support their right to self-determination. I do not support the idea that the US should "intervene". Whatever they end up with should be a result of their actions, not ours. I hope for their sake that they end up with a fair and equal society, but I'm not about to hold my breath for it. :shrug:
 
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