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Thread: Tenn. judge changes infant's name from 'Messiah'

  1. #381
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    Re: Tenn. judge changes infant's name from 'Messiah'

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It isn't the same though. The judge ruled that Messiah as a name would cause people to harm or be upset with the child with that name. The ruling that was made in the other case said that others should not be forced to make a declaration with a name given purposely to make that declaration without any mistake as to the declaration being made. There is no innocent intention when it comes to "JesusIsLord" as a name or "ChristIsKing" as a last name. It isn't simply "a mistake" but rather an effort to force your religion onto others.
    I think names are included with freedom of speech. Even if it is wrong (by your standards) it is unAmerican to not allow it. Im sure the kid will argue enough with his parents to get it changed or have people call them by a different nickname if it bothers them enough. If I want to name my kid XYZ and start a new trend because its who I am then who are you to deny me this because it ruffles your feathers? People have different standards and this isnt illegal. People try to force their religion and many many other things on their kids all the time. Deal with it.
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    Re: Tenn. judge changes infant's name from 'Messiah'

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Pardon my direct question...but where did you get the notion you had the right to NOT be offended by someone elses decision? And maybe a better question...what kind of a person is going to walk around being 'offended' over someones name, however stupid it may be? And finally...do you REALLY believe its a judges place to make that kind of a judgement call?
    As the lawyer in your posted story on this correctly pointed out, other people are much more likely to use a person's name than the person themself. And that is reasonable enough to find that someone should not be able to have whatever name they want. It is not unreasonable to expect people to have names that would not offend a large number of people, as ChristIsKing or JesusIsLord could very well do. Messiah is less likely to do it. Just like with most things, it is about level of harm done. Whose rights are more affected. In this case, there is a request to make an official change, not simply a judge overstepping and deciding that a child should not be named something that is in fact the name held by many others. Another factor is absolutely intention. And they are free to be called whatever they want to. But they should not be allowed to force others to call them something that could reasonably seen as offensive to them.
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  3. #383
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    Re: Tenn. judge changes infant's name from 'Messiah'

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    I think names are included with freedom of speech. Even if it is wrong (by your standards) it is unAmerican to not allow it. Im sure the kid will argue enough with his parents to get it changed or have people call them by a different nickname if it bothers them enough. If I want to name my kid XYZ and start a new trend because its who I am then who are you to deny me this because it ruffles your feathers? People have different standards and this isnt illegal. People try to force their religion and many many other things on their kids all the time. Deal with it.
    The kid was indoctrinated to want the name "JesusIsLord". The first judge said that he should wait to change his name til he was an adult. His birth certificate had his name as "Jeremy", not "JesusIsLord". He has been known as Jeremy since he was born up until the parents wanted to change it and the whole family's last name to "ChristIsKing" (which was actually the main one being denied here, not the child's first name).
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Tenn. judge changes infant's name from 'Messiah'

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    As the lawyer in your posted story on this correctly pointed out, other people are much more likely to use a person's name than the person themself. And that is reasonable enough to find that someone should not be able to have whatever name they want. It is not unreasonable to expect people to have names that would not offend a large number of people, as ChristIsKing or JesusIsLord could very well do. Messiah is less likely to do it. Just like with most things, it is about level of harm done. Whose rights are more affected. In this case, there is a request to make an official change, not simply a judge overstepping and deciding that a child should not be named something that is in fact the name held by many others. Another factor is absolutely intention. And they are free to be called whatever they want to. But they should not be allowed to force others to call them something that could reasonably seen as offensive to them.
    Again...thats one of those things we like to call "their problem".

    How much do you want to bet that the REAL reason the judge decided not to allow the name Messiah was because THE JUDGE was offended?

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    Re: Tenn. judge changes infant's name from 'Messiah'

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Again...thats one of those things we like to call "their problem".

    How much do you want to bet that the REAL reason the judge decided not to allow the name Messiah was because THE JUDGE was offended?
    Several judges denied the boy's name change, not just one. And certain name changes have been denied even by the SCOTUS as not being reasonable freedom of speech when it is an official name change. As I said before, unofficially they can be called whatever they want to. In fact, there is a common law they can use where they are free to become known as that name without an official request, but official requests can be denied with good reason. What else would be good reason?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Tenn. judge changes infant's name from 'Messiah'

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Several judges denied the boy's name change, not just one. And certain name changes have been denied even by the SCOTUS as not being reasonable freedom of speech when it is an official name change. As I said before, unofficially they can be called whatever they want to. In fact, there is a common law they can use where they are free to become known as that name without an official request, but official requests can be denied with good reason. What else would be good reason?
    I think we are having this thread and discussion because they 'can'. The question is not can but 'should'.

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    Re: Tenn. judge changes infant's name from 'Messiah'

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I think we are having this thread and discussion because they 'can'. The question is not can but 'should'.
    Actually, that case could very well go up to the SCOTUS.

    And yes, they should be able to limit (in very specific cases) what a person can change their name to or put on a birth certificate (although that would likely be something that would simply be denied by the county clerk first and then go to a judge).

    You consistently have avoided answering most of what I have asked though. What is reasonable to limit? Why should they not be allowed to limit name changes when those names could greatly offend someone else to say, from a reasonable person standpoint? The SCOTUS has even said that limits of a very specific kind on name changes do not violate freedom of speech since those people are still allowed to legally tell others that they want to be called that specific name even if it is not official. Now, it doesn't mean others have to call them that.

    But they made some good points. Having a name like "ChristIsKing" could cause major issues for companies that were frequented by a person with that last name, especially given the first names. It can cause political and social problems for someone else because you have that name. As the article pointed out, what if someone had to request over an intercom "Rejoice ChristIsKing" or "JesusIsLord ChristIsKing"? That could most definitely be taken as an employee stating their religious beliefs to an entire restaurant or airport or even public office. The people in there wouldn't think that this was a name being requested. They would think it was a statement of belief, and some could be offended enough by this to in fact cause the business harm because of the name used. The same would be true for a name such as "PissOff" or "ChinksMakeGoodSlaves". They would still be freedom of speech names right? Then why can't a person use those names officially?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Tenn. judge changes infant's name from 'Messiah'

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Actually, that case could very well go up to the SCOTUS.

    And yes, they should be able to limit (in very specific cases) what a person can change their name to or put on a birth certificate (although that would likely be something that would simply be denied by the county clerk first and then go to a judge).

    You consistently have avoided answering most of what I have asked though. What is reasonable to limit? Why should they not be allowed to limit name changes when those names could greatly offend someone else to say, from a reasonable person standpoint? The SCOTUS has even said that limits of a very specific kind on name changes do not violate freedom of speech since those people are still allowed to legally tell others that they want to be called that specific name even if it is not official. Now, it doesn't mean others have to call them that.

    But they made some good points. Having a name like "ChristIsKing" could cause major issues for companies that were frequented by a person with that last name, especially given the first names. It can cause political and social problems for someone else because you have that name. As the article pointed out, what if someone had to request over an intercom "Rejoice ChristIsKing" or "JesusIsLord ChristIsKing"? That could most definitely be taken as an employee stating their religious beliefs to an entire restaurant or airport or even public office. The people in there wouldn't think that this was a name being requested. They would think it was a statement of belief, and some could be offended enough by this to in fact cause the business harm because of the name used. The same would be true for a name such as "PissOff" or "ChinksMakeGoodSlaves". They would still be freedom of speech names right? Then why can't a person use those names officially?
    Then they can announce "The person with the name ChristIsKing" to prevent confusion or not employ that person. Who cares if people get mad? Thats their problem and they can sort it out later only to find out it was someones name even if confusion does occur. I guess people shouldnt be named Shirley either. Shirley, you cant be serious!

    What about Kreye-staz-keeng? Is that illegal in your books? Once you take a bit away of free speech then it is no longer free speech. It is limited speech.
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    Re: Tenn. judge changes infant's name from 'Messiah'

    I honestly think there's a difference between changing a first name and a last name. In this case, it wasn't picking a new last name, it was determining which one of the existing last names would be used. I don't think people ought to be able to change last names to something made up, they ought to have a legitimate reason for it and then, only changing to another legitimate last name that they have a legal link to.
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    Re: Tenn. judge changes infant's name from 'Messiah'

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I honestly think there's a difference between changing a first name and a last name. In this case, it wasn't picking a new last name, it was determining which one of the existing last names would be used. I don't think people ought to be able to change last names to something made up, they ought to have a legitimate reason for it and then, only changing to another legitimate last name that they have a legal link to.
    All names were made up at some point in time. Thats an absurd requirement. That it has to exsist already?? What if my dad was a carpenter and my mom was a whore? If I want to change my last name to Carpenslut then what business is it of yours?
    I'm Finding it Harder to be a Gentleman, White Stripes ~ "You think I care about me and only me. When every girl needs help climbing up a tree."

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