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Car bombs kill nearly 80 in Iraq, target Eid festivities

Actually you can, but it must be maintained and nurtured.

Freedom cannot be brought down upon a people by force, they must want it. We see in Iraq what happens when you try to force the issue to a divided people. All we did was contribute to the instability of the region, we added no benefit. And there's nothing to "maintain and nurture", imperial occupation and demands forced upon a people cannot bring freedom either.
 
You can force stability.

Yes, you can. Saddam was a perfect demonstration of that. You cannot, however, force freedom.
 
Freedom cannot be brought down upon a people by force, they must want it.

Or they must experience it. The Japanese certainly didn't want democracy during or prior to WWII but they were forced, got it, and now it's doubtful they would want any emperor to return. If a theocracy, or any other dictatorship, can be brought about by force, as is usually the case, then there seems to be no reason why the opposite cannot be true.
We see in Iraq what happens when you try to force the issue to a divided people.
Peope are always divided by some degrees but it seems apparent from the news we watched during the fiorst election the Iraqi people ever enjoyed that they were pleased. Now they are having an Islamist war forced on them with no one fighting for Democracy, now that the Americans and the Coalition have withdrawn. They really didn't have much of a chance because Democracy, as new to the country as the Internet, never got time to take root and become properly established.
All we did was contribute to the instability of the region, we added no benefit. And there's nothing to "maintain and nurture", imperial occupation and demands forced upon a people cannot bring freedom either.

This region has never been stable. There was no benefit because there were no safeguards to protect what was won. The Islamists didn't win the war as much as the Leftists in the West did.

I think Democracy and freedom may be more popular idea around the world than you might imagine. There were a lot of purple fingers and smiling faces during that first Iraqi election.
 
Yes, you can. Saddam was a perfect demonstration of that. You cannot, however, force freedom.

Do you feel people everywhere are generally against freedom and would be more inclined to fight for a dictatorship? In fact you gain freedom by fighting those who are against and freedom is seldom, if ever, "forced". Did it have to be forced on you?
 
Oh, please. What "fact" am I missing?
We went to Kuwait to defend the oil producing nation and friend of Bush 1 from Iraq.
We went back to Iraq when Bush 2 came along to go after the man that went after his daddy. OK, I can dig that.
But we went under the BS vail of UN sanctions. Saddam is killing Kurds and such. Well who is at fault for that? We are.
We told them when we would be leaving giving them time to prepare for what they are doing now. Destabilizing the nation.
How much did that littel foray in the desert cost us? WAS IT WORTH IT?
I have asked that a couple times and you just try to back wash my posts saying "its no use debating". A sure sign you lost whatever debate you had.
Oh, and if you old enough. You may remember that we backed Iraq in the Iran Iraq war.

You should demand a refund from wherever you learned your history. Was it Detroit?
 
Or they must experience it. The Japanese certainly didn't want democracy during or prior to WWII but they were forced, got it, and now it's doubtful they would want any emperor to return. If a theocracy, or any other dictatorship, can be brought about by force, as is usually the case, then there seems to be no reason why the opposite cannot be true.

Japan is sort of the exception that proves the rule. Also, they were already a united people so that didn't need to be fought. Also they were forced to sign a surrender and lost in a for real war against America. Once we broke them, there was no real large scale resistance; their government mostly did as we said. There weren't neighboring countries that could destabilize the region either. So there are plenty of differences between WW II Japan and modern day Iraq.

Peope are always divided by some degrees but it seems apparent from the news we watched during the fiorst election the Iraqi people ever enjoyed that they were pleased. Now they are having an Islamist war forced on them with no one fighting for Democracy, now that the Americans and the Coalition have withdrawn. They really didn't have much of a chance because Democracy, as new to the country as the Internet, never got time to take root and become properly established.

None so much as the religious divide that exists in Iraq. Fighting religion ain't easy, and when a people are entrenched in opposing and combative views and are willing to use violence to get their religion set into law above all else; you cannot maintain a free state. Iraq was stable under Saddam, and unfortunately it had to be that fear and iron fist there to keep them in line.

This region has never been stable. There was no benefit because there were no safeguards to protect what was won. The Islamists didn't win the war as much as the Leftists in the West did.

I think Democracy and freedom may be more popular idea around the world than you might imagine. There were a lot of purple fingers and smiling faces during that first Iraqi election.

Region was well stable in the past. The ME is birthplace of human civilization. It brought us astronomy and math and science. There may have been a lot of purple fingers and smiling faces during the first Iraqi election, but if the People as a whole are not resolved to keep freedom, then there is no way they will be able to keep freedom.
 
Yes, lets keep sacrifcing our nations weath, our future generations for piss poor reasons.
Lets keep our noses in places we dont belong and continue to make enemies out of people we should have no business dealing with.
Lets keep doing bombing campaigns then sending in the engineers to build schools, roads and bridges while our schools, roads and bridges are falling apart.
If we dont get enough oil from the ME to make a difference? Then leave the ME. Let them fight it out. And if Russia and China wish to get involved over there. Let them. Maybe with some luck they will end up fighting each other.
Dont we have enough dead, injured, wounded Americans already? Do we need thousands more?

You think it will be lucky if Russia and China go to war??? Spoken like a true 'moderate'.
 
Do you feel people everywhere are generally against freedom and would be more inclined to fight for a dictatorship? In fact you gain freedom by fighting those who are against and freedom is seldom, if ever, "forced". Did it have to be forced on you?

I'm in a culture where we're losing our freedom because people are not resolved to keep it. But yes, if a People come together to fight tyranny they have taken the first steps necessary to secure and keep it. They have to be willing to take that step, they must resolve themselves to the repercussions and responsibilities that freedom entails. The people of Iraq are well too fractured to stand together and united in the manner that is necessary to keep freedom. And that was well obvious before we went in.
 
Japan is sort of the exception that proves the rule. Also, they were already a united people so that didn't need to be fought. Also they were forced to sign a surrender and lost in a for real war against America. Once we broke them, there was no real large scale resistance; their government mostly did as we said. There weren't neighboring countries that could destabilize the region either. So there are plenty of differences between WW II Japan and modern day Iraq.

That's why all wars should be "for real" wars, not the cut and run wars which have taken hold in the west during the last few decades. Nixon, btw, was the one who warned about this happening and the usual "It's another Vietnam" from the usual suspects.

None so much as the religious divide that exists in Iraq. Fighting religion ain't easy,

Don't confuse Islam with Islamists. It is not a religious war any more than fighting Communism, Fascism or Nazism were religious wars. It is, as usual. all about power.

and when a people are entrenched in opposing and combative views and are willing to use violence to get their religion set into law above all else; you cannot maintain a free state.

But thats what happened in those former Communist, Fascist and Nazi nations. You'd have trouble finding supporting evidence for this point of view.

Iraq was stable under Saddam, and unfortunately it had to be that fear and iron fist there to keep them in line.

People don't have to be 'kept in line' by brutal dictatorships, Have you really thought deeply about what you are saying about people?

Region was well stable in the past. The ME is birthplace of human civilization. It brought us astronomy and math and science.

I was referring to more recent centuries.

There may have been a lot of purple fingers and smiling faces during the first Iraqi election, but if the People as a whole are not resolved to keep freedom, then there is no way they will be able to keep freedom.

If they bon\t have the training and weaponry then of course the more violent will win. Do you believe the people genuinely wanted to live under Communism?
 
Who is "we"? The 'Right"? The Left" The Republicans? The Democrats?


But instead the American people turned on themselves, just as they have done since the late 60's.



According to many Americans every war in which they have been involved, including the Cold War, has been worthless. They'll probably be smarter within the next 20 or so years, which is too late for a wake-up call. The Left in America has the same attitudes toward their country as their enemies do.
The US.
Wont be smarter, will do it all over again. Lucky for me, Iam at an age now, I probably wont be here to say I told you so.
 
You think it will be lucky if Russia and China go to war??? Spoken like a true 'moderate'.
That was kind of tongue in cheek. But watching our two biggest enemies go at it would be a hoot.
 
I'm in a culture where we're losing our freedom because people are not resolved to keep it. But yes, if a People come together to fight tyranny they have taken the first steps necessary to secure and keep it.

How can they oppose it when the fanatics have all the guns and are willing to lose their lives in order to achieve the visions of Allah?

They have to be willing to take that step, they must resolve themselves to the repercussions and responsibilities that freedom entails. The people of Iraq are well too fractured to stand together and united in the manner that is necessary to keep freedom. And that was well obvious before we went in.

Whatever Osama Bin Laden was, hw was not an idiot. He said that the people will follow the strongest horse and he was right. The West barely has a horse in the race, and the Islamists know it.

You'll see Muslims saying they do not support terrorism when, like the Leftists, they are only critical of the west and their leaders. Who do you think will win the long war. this WWIV?
 
That was kind of tongue in cheek. But watching our two biggest enemies go at it would be a hoot.

I doubt they are your biggest enemies. They may be irritants but that's about as far as it goes.
 
The US.
Wont be smarter, will do it all over again. Lucky for me, Iam at an age now, I probably wont be here to say I told you so.

I sincerely hope you are here to tell me "I told you so", Crue Cab.
 
Thank you George Bush for giving us Iraq. And thank you Ronald Reagan, for giving us Afghanistan.

Conservative foreign policy at its finest.

Great insight.

Islamists, like the Communists before them, also believe that the ills of the world can be traced back to the Americans.
 
Great insight.

Islamists, like the Communists before them, also believe that the ills of the world can be traced back to the Americans.


Why did Russia invade Afghanistan
The US viewed the entire conflict as being necessary in the Cold War struggle, and President Jimmy Carter authorized the CIA to begin covert ops to get many types of assistance to the Afghan rebels in order to hinder the Soviet forces and their advancement through Afghanistan. This entire operation was dubbed Operation Cyclone.
A very similar movement happened in other Muslim countries, which brought contingents of Afghan Arabs and foreign fighters who wanted to wage jihad against the communists. Perhaps the most notable of these fighters was a young Saudi named Osama bin Laden, whose militant Arab group would eventually form al-Qaeda.
{snip}
Source: Why did Russia invade Afghanistan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How Pres. Clinton Marketed the Invasion of Iraq​


By: Scott

Much has been made for the past six years of President Bush and his administration’s efforts to convince the American people and the world of the necessity to invade Iraq and remove Saddam Hussein. It is an issue that has left few stones unturned, and as such, the time has come for history to examine the role that President Clinton and officials from his administration and the era of his reign had in marketing the idea that Saddam Hussein was a WMD threat.

The rhetorical buildup to the invasion of Iraq started with the inclusion of Iraq in the famous Jan 2002 Axis of Evil comment made at the State of the Union address. However, there was almost no more rhetoric from the Bush Administration for the following 9 months-not until his Sept 12, 2002 address to the United Nations where President Bush challenged the UN to peacefully resolve the question of Saddam’s missing WMD after 11years of UN failure to do so. Immediately after that speech, the military buildup began in preparation for the UN’s typical failure re Saddam’s Iraq. Similarly, so too did the bi-partisan rhetoric and claims that Saddam’s Iraq had WMD still hidden from the UN. It was at this point when officials from the former Clinton Administration, President Clinton, and Senator Clinton went to work to justify and promote the invasion of Iraq.

“We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.”
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

[Excerpt]

Read more:
How Pres. Clinton Marketed the Invasion of Iraq | Flopping Aces


Just love it when Progressive Socialists try to revise history in their favor.
 
Why did Russia invade Afghanistan
The US viewed the entire conflict as being necessary in the Cold War struggle, and President Jimmy Carter authorized the CIA to begin covert ops to get many types of assistance to the Afghan rebels in order to hinder the Soviet forces and their advancement through Afghanistan. This entire operation was dubbed Operation Cyclone.
A very similar movement happened in other Muslim countries, which brought contingents of Afghan Arabs and foreign fighters who wanted to wage jihad against the communists. Perhaps the most notable of these fighters was a young Saudi named Osama bin Laden, whose militant Arab group would eventually form al-Qaeda.
{snip}
Source: Why did Russia invade Afghanistan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How Pres. Clinton Marketed the Invasion of Iraq​


By: Scott

Much has been made for the past six years of President Bush and his administration’s efforts to convince the American people and the world of the necessity to invade Iraq and remove Saddam Hussein. It is an issue that has left few stones unturned, and as such, the time has come for history to examine the role that President Clinton and officials from his administration and the era of his reign had in marketing the idea that Saddam Hussein was a WMD threat.

The rhetorical buildup to the invasion of Iraq started with the inclusion of Iraq in the famous Jan 2002 Axis of Evil comment made at the State of the Union address. However, there was almost no more rhetoric from the Bush Administration for the following 9 months-not until his Sept 12, 2002 address to the United Nations where President Bush challenged the UN to peacefully resolve the question of Saddam’s missing WMD after 11years of UN failure to do so. Immediately after that speech, the military buildup began in preparation for the UN’s typical failure re Saddam’s Iraq. Similarly, so too did the bi-partisan rhetoric and claims that Saddam’s Iraq had WMD still hidden from the UN. It was at this point when officials from the former Clinton Administration, President Clinton, and Senator Clinton went to work to justify and promote the invasion of Iraq.

“We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.”
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

[Excerpt]

Read more:
How Pres. Clinton Marketed the Invasion of Iraq | Flopping Aces


Just love it when Progressive Socialists try to revise history in their favor.

They have opinions, not knowledge.
 
They have opinions, not knowledge.

Charlie Wilson (D-Tx.) was instrumental in establishing the CIA connection



Operation Cyclone was the code name for the United States Central Intelligence Agency program to arm and finance the Afghan mujahideen prior to and during the Soviet war in Afghanistan, 1979 to 1989. The program leaned heavily towards supporting militant Islamic groups that were favored by neighboring Pakistan, rather than other, less ideological Afghan resistance groups that had also been fighting the Marxist-oriented Democratic Republic of Afghanistan regime since before the Soviet intervention. Operation Cyclone was one of the longest and most expensive covert CIA operations ever undertaken;[1] funding began with $20–30 million per year in 1980 and rose to $630 million per year in 1987.[2] Funding continued after 1989 as the Mujahideen battled the forces of Mohammad Najibullah's PDPA during the Civil war in Afghanistan (1989–1992).[3]

Operation Cyclone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Main article: Operation Cyclone

In 1980, Wilson read an Associated Press dispatch on the congressional wires describing the refugees fleeing Soviet-occupied Afghanistan. The communist Democratic Republic of Afghanistan had taken over power during the Afghan Civil War and asked the Soviet Union to help suppress resistance from the mujahideen. According to biographer George Crile III, Wilson called the staff of the House Appropriations Committee dealing with "black appropriations" and requested a two-fold appropriation increase for Afghanistan. Because Wilson had just been named to the House Appropriations Subcommittee on Defense (which is responsible for funding CIA operations), his request went through.[21
Charlie Wilson (Texas politician) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And that's factual history something people of the Progressive Left seem to revise to make themselves look good when they are not.
 
Worked in Germany and Japan.

That's when people went to war and they were serious about winning. If WWI or WWII was fought now would the people support them the way they did then? Or would they demand withdrawal when the first body bags arrived home?

The media and Hollywood also supported the American President and the troops. I feel safe in saying that they would be making the claim that "Not all Germans are Nazis" and "Not all Japanese are Imperialists".

Now they are just as likely to support Communism and Islamism as Democracy and human frights and freedoms.
 
That's when people went to war and they were serious about winning. If WWI or WWII was fought now would the people support them the way they did then? Or would they demand withdrawal when the first body bags arrived home?

The media and Hollywood also supported the American President and the troops. I feel safe in saying that they would be making the claim that "Not all Germans are Nazis" and "Not all Japanese are Imperialists".

Now they are just as likely to support Communism and Islamism as Democracy and human frights and freedoms.

Anyone comparing those countries or that war with Iraq have completely misread history and have no understanding of what we've done.
 
How long? How long was Germany down and out? Not long. People were rebuilding on their own before Hitler was dead.

The reconstruction of Germany wasnt complete until the 80's.
 
Anyone comparing those countries or that war with Iraq have completely misread history and have no understanding of what we've done.

Then this might be a good time to demonstrate your knowledge of the subject.
 
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