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Thread: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Yet....
    Yet nothing. The fact is the fact.

    And BTW, a universal payer would not be talking of the medical profession. That too is a fact.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Some are even more partisan than they are racist. It's like the "D" staring them in the face gets them twisted into knots and they suddenly see Marxists and Socialists, even when the D happens to be your run of the mill corporatist. Funny, actually, to those of us watching you/.
    Oh...are you a "D"? I didn't know, though I could have guessed by your rhetoric. And, you see, that's all you have: rhetoric.

    Dude...you've already shot your wad with your hyperbolic playing of every card in your deck. You might as well give up now. You have nothing left but inane blatherings such as the above.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

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    Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I disagree. Access is a problem. And frankly, if the solution to cost is denying adequate care, I'd say we've already lost the battle.
    The solution to cost is to constrain them somehow or another, whether dropping coverage of some things, capping provider pay, setting prices for services, or some combination, and it's time to face reality and admit that this is not going to be easy, and some people are gonna be pissed. You throwing your hands up saying we lost the battle just because the answer is not a walk in the park suggests you have unrealistic expectations about UHC.

    Consider outpatient clinic care (the one thing to which the poor are "denied access"). Ours is about twice as expensive as the #2 most expensive clinic care in the world (Sweden). Opening the doors to all people (who can't pay for it) means the federal government would be eating all of that cost, and it would be massive. No, UHC cannot be a free for all, it would have to control that outrageous clinic care cost somehow, and the act of doing it will hurt. But it's needed. Never has it been more needed.

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I'm not sure that's true, but I'll address it. It doesn't have to be one size fits all. Nor do I think it really is. Even if we moved to a single payer system, health professionals are still free to practice as they see fit. All we really have right now are some specific guidelines, most of which are reasonable.

    And if we do adopt such a system, you may be able to find a country that you can move to.
    You can't seriously think that is true. The one who pays the bills is the one who calls the shots. The more our central government takes upon themselves to pay for...the more they control. We've seen this already in so many examples. Heck...the the drinking age is a perfect example of that. Before the federal government decided to put the screws to the States, they were free to set their own drinking age...and they did. Now, the money man...the central government...has ended that.

    We can only expect the same in regard to health care.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Oh...are you a "D"? I didn't know, though I could have guessed by your rhetoric. And, you see, that's all you have: rhetoric.

    Dude...you've already shot your wad with your hyperbolic playing of every card in your deck. You might as well give up now. You have nothing left but inane blatherings such as the above.
    No. I'm not a "D". I vote for who I perceive is the best candidate.

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    The solution to cost is to constrain them somehow or another, whether dropping coverage of some things, capping provider pay, setting prices for services, or some combination, and it's time to face reality and admit that this is not going to be easy, and some people are gonna be pissed. You throwing your hands up saying we lost the battle just because the answer is not a walk in the park suggests you have unrealistic expectations about UHC.

    Consider outpatient clinic care (the one thing to which the poor are "denied access"). Ours is about twice as expensive as the #2 most expensive clinic care in the world (Sweden). Opening the doors to all people (who can't pay for it) means the federal government would be eating all of that cost, and it would be massive. No, UHC cannot be a free for all, it would have to control that outrageous clinic care cost somehow, and the act of doing it will hurt. But it's needed. Never has it been more needed.
    We can cap electives, certainly. We don't need to pay for breast augmentation or hair transplant for male pattern baldness. And we don't need to pay for colds in the ER.

    And nothing is free. Taxes pay for it, so tax payers can use it.

    But to deny access to the most needy is losing the battle. Medicine is very different in that the need is humanitarian in nature. You can't sit down with the ill or the injured and haggle. Not once you reach a certain point. And being treated for emergencies or serious ills should never be denied due to cost. No person of good will could ever do that. So it is best to plan for it.

    Ive stated before I don't suggest this for ever whim. But adequate care is appropriate.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    You can't seriously think that is true. The one who pays the bills is the one who calls the shots. The more our central government takes upon themselves to pay for...the more they control. We've seen this already in so many examples. Heck...the the drinking age is a perfect example of that. Before the federal government decided to put the screws to the States, they were free to set their own drinking age...and they did. Now, the money man...the central government...has ended that.

    We can only expect the same in regard to health care.
    I know its true.

    And no, a single payer only dictates what will be covered by the payer. Much as the insurance company does. The physician is still the person who decides how to treat the patient.

    And ina two tiered system, which is the only kind we have any hope of having here, the patient is still free to pay for more. More insurance, more care, more bells and whistles, even if it isn't needed.

    And states are still free. They make decisions based on what they value.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    We can cap electives, certainly. We don't need to pay for breast augmentation or hair transplant for male pattern baldness.
    Well as it stands this is 0% of our money problem in health care.

    And nothing is free. Taxes pay for it, so tax payers can use it.
    Even now taxes only pay for part of it, theoretically. We have nowhere close to a balanced budget and if FedGov starts footing the bill for our superlatively expensive clinic care on top of Medicare and Medicaid, it will compound.

    But to deny access to the most needy is losing the battle. Medicine is very different in that the need is humanitarian in nature. You can't sit down with the ill or the injured and haggle. Not once you reach a certain point. And being treated for emergencies or serious ills should never be denied due to cost. No person of good will could ever do that. So it is best to plan for it.

    Ive stated before I don't suggest this for ever whim. But adequate care is appropriate.
    You're shying away from difficult answers, and that is extremely expensive. UHC only works with long overdue and austere cost control, not just saving nickels here and there. No matter what we do to implement cost austerity under UHC, it will have the effect of "denying care" in a sense. If you insist that not happen, then you're unwittingly advocating for the health care crisis to become a fiscal crisis. Without the austere cost control, UHC would be unprecedentedly expensive.

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Well as it stands this is 0% of our money problem in health care.



    Even now taxes only pay for part of it, theoretically. We have nowhere close to a balanced budget and if FedGov starts footing the bill for our superlatively expensive clinic care on top of Medicare and Medicaid, it will compound.



    You're shying away from difficult answers, and that is extremely expensive. UHC only works with long overdue and austere cost control, not just saving nickels here and there. No matter what we do to implement cost austerity under UHC, it will have the effect of "denying care" in a sense. If you insist that not happen, then you're unwittingly advocating for the health care crisis to become a fiscal crisis. Without the austere cost control, UHC would be unprecedentedly expensive.
    I don't believe that's true. I really don't.

    Patients will get the care one way or another, and we'll all pay for it one way or another. We have an aging population right now, which is a problem. And there are a few places where heroic or excessive means can be avoided. And a well educated elderly might even take it upon themselves to limit some of the more questionable efforts.

    But eventually that tide will turn.

    I'm suggesting we can do a better job if we plan better, institute some mechanism to monitor and adjust to meet to need. Our ad hoc efforts have been very expensive. I think we can do better.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I don't believe that's true. I really don't.

    Patients will get the care one way or another, and we'll all pay for it one way or another. We have an aging population right now, which is a problem. And there are a few places where heroic or excessive means can be avoided. And a well educated elderly might even take it upon themselves to limit some of the more questionable efforts.

    But eventually that tide will turn.

    I'm suggesting we can do a better job if we plan better, institute some mechanism to monitor and adjust to meet to need. Our ad hoc efforts have been very expensive. I think we can do better.
    Of course we can, I think we're just disagreeing how painless or painful it will be to do significantly better.

    Very simply put, either consumers control the cost or government does. There is no third way. For consumers to control cost, the system would have to be cash only. Denial of care and all that. Even most conservatives reject that, although it would be the absolute best for cost controls. Ushering in UHC is a statement to government "we can't bear to control these costs ourselves, you must do it for us," which means we place our faith in the prudence of our political class.

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