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Thread: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    The salaries of all teachers and the public pensioneers above $75,000 a year are public record. Most of those 75ers are admins or rich repub suburban teachers. We have over 3,000 grandfathers, averaging $200,000 a year. These are not teachers. This is $0.6 billion a year and cannot be sustained.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    I'm not in a position to discuss individual cases or amounts.

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    The salaries of all teachers and the public pensioneers above $75,000 a year are public record. Most of those 75ers are admins or rich repub suburban teachers. We have over 3,000 grandfathers, averaging $200,000 a year. These are not teachers. This is $0.6 billion a year and cannot be sustained.
    $75,000/year is not rich and I doubt most of those teachers are Repubs.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    First, no one said anything about unlimited. Every system has limitations. No one pretends otherwise.
    Okay, but the limitations tend to be avoided by UHC advocates, as far as I've seen around here. I.e., "we're not saying unlimited... just... whatever anyone needs... whenever they need it."

    But, factually, we have proven as a people we won't allow denial of emergency care for example. Good policy or not, it's a fact that we've said no.
    That's true, but there are pitfalls of this, such as expensive diagnostic tests when malingerers show up pretending to be in pain, to have a headache, to be short-of-breath, dizzy, or depressed/lonely and suicidal. That gets expensive too. In many communities, police are required to filter public drunks through ERs before they can put them in the drunk tank. **** you not. How expensive is that, in total?

    It's as though every ER in the nation needs a hyper-savvy and hyper-efficient triaging system. But as it is now, they're liability-averse, and over-admit the malingerers, drunks, etc.

    The biggest problem with guaranteed emergency care is that people simply feign emergency to get immediate service. And if they don't pay for it, and because it's up and running 24/7, it becomes ripe for abuse.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 08-18-13 at 08:44 PM.

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    It is in Illinois and the Country I live in, the USA. 75K is 50% above the National average for households. My VT community last semester was 38K. Why do employers keep squeezing the bottom? Our economy is like you squeezing near the top of closed toothpaste. These suburbs are Repub. You linked repup to teacher.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    $75,000/year is not rich and I doubt most of those teachers are Repubs.

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    That is exactly right, although it wasn't always that way. We used to have policies that were good for catastrophic coverage, but Obama's Unavailable Care Act has outlawed them. If applied to car insurance, ObamaCare would require insurance to pay for gas, oil, tires, lube jobs, windshield wipers, and all sorts of other routine maintenance. Imagine what that premium would look like after you threw in the overhead for processing the claims and then doubled it for government oversight (including fancy conferences at luxury resorts, line dancing lessons, et al).
    Agree, and the line dancing lessons comment reminded me of something: if you made a pitch to a liberal that health insurance should cover gym memberships and exercise class, claiming that people who can use the gym for free are healthier and so therefore it will reduce health care costs, what do you think the liberal would say? What do you think the exercise equipment and health/fitness club industries would have to say about these easy subsidies? They'd all be super excited about it, and we'd all pay for this giveaway too.

    The sucking sound is our money and our personal responsibility being vacuumed up by the Federal Government Health Insurance Machine.

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Okay, but the limitations tend to be avoided by UHC advocates, as far as I've seen around here. I.e., "we're not saying unlimited... just... whatever anyone needs... whenever they need it."



    That's true, but there are pitfalls of this, such as expensive diagnostic tests when malingerers show up pretending to be in pain, to have a headache, to be short-of-breath, dizzy, or depressed/lonely and suicidal. That gets expensive too. In many communities, police are required to filter public drunks through ERs before they can put them in the drunk tank. **** you not. How expensive is that, in total?

    It's as though every ER in the nation needs a hyper-savvy and hyper-efficient triaging system. But as it is now, they're liability-averse, and over-admit the malingerers, drunks, etc.

    The biggest problem with guaranteed emergency care is that people simply feign emergency to get immediate service. And if they don't pay for it, and because it's up and running 24/7, it becomes ripe for abuse.
    Need is different than want.

    Malingers show up now. And one way or another we pay for it now. But expensive test don't really have to be done. And filtering drunks through is so,etching we already do, and pay for that already. But it can be done cheaper. The ER not likely the best place.

    And we can limit ERs to only emergencies, as they were intended.

    We abuse it now. And it's not due to insurance. It's due to a mindset that we have to do more when less s often more effective. But many working poor go without care. Needed care. We can contain costs, give adequate care, and still allow the wealthy to be wasteful.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Need is different than want.

    Malingers show up now. And one way or another we pay for it now. But expensive test don't really have to be done.
    Tell that to the liability-averse ER doc who has no idea if the guy with the .180 BAC is telling the truth about his dizzying migraine or is making it up to avoid another transfer to the drunk tank. They'd rather do the CT scan just to be safe.

    And filtering drunks through is so,etching we already do, and pay for that already. But it can be done cheaper. The ER not likely the best place.

    And we can limit ERs to only emergencies, as they were intended.
    How? Tort reform? If an ER doc says scram and the guy dies, does the pissed grieving family have a winning case?

    I have worked in the ER, so anecdotally I can say they almost always opt toward that which minimizes liability, even though it tends to maximize cost.

    We abuse it now. And it's not due to insurance. It's due to a mindset that we have to do more when less s often more effective.
    It's more basic than that, we abuse it because it's 1) paid for by others and 2) guaranteed to provide 24/7.

    But many working poor go without care. Needed care. We can contain costs, give adequate care, and still allow the wealthy to be wasteful.
    You make it sound so easy when it is not. It will cause major disruption to contain costs. We have yet to come to terms with what cost containment really requires, and as a result this health care issue is making us all poorer, fast.

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Tell that to the liability-averse ER doc who has no idea if the guy with the .180 BAC is telling the truth about his dizzying migraine or is making it up to avoid another transfer to the drunk tank. They'd rather do the CT scan just to be safe.
    I will. If procedures are clear established, back by law, he has nothing to fear. UHC helps him with this as well.

    How? Tort reform? If an ER doc says scram and the guy dies, does the pissed grieving family have a winning case?

    I have worked in the ER, so anecdotally I can say they almost always opt toward that which minimizes liability, even though it tends to maximize cost.
    I too ave worked the ER. Married an ER nurse. Together, we have 50 years of experience in ERs. If the rules are clearly defined, no one need fear law suits. Like I said, UHC helps here as it codifies these procedures.
    It's more basic than that, we abuse it because it's 1) paid for by others and 2) guaranteed to provide 24/7.
    It's not really guaranteed. Only emergencies are covered by law. And others pay for it and will no matter what you do unless you deny service. As I said, we've been unwilling to do this.

    You make it sound so easy when it is not. It will cause major disruption to contain costs. We have yet to come to terms with what cost containment really requires, and as a result this health care issue is making us all poorer, fast.
    Don't know why you think it sounds easy. I don't see it that way. But I do believe it can be done if we stop the nonsense and go to wrk doing it. And no, we don't at all have to be poorer. Taxes will not equal what we spend right now on insurance premiums. So working people will likely see more money in their checks. Businesses will be more equal to the rest of the world. It has several benefits.

    Our biggest problem will be an aging population. But eventually that tide will turn. And if we quit fighting needless wars, bailing out businesses, and redistributing wealth to the wealthy, we can create a very workable system.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I will. If procedures are clear established, back by law, he has nothing to fear. UHC helps him with this as well.



    I too ave worked the ER. Married an ER nurse. Together, we have 50 years of experience in ERs. If the rules are clearly defined, no one need fear law suits. Like I said, UHC helps here as it codifies these procedures.

    It's not really guaranteed. Only emergencies are covered by law. And others pay for it and will no matter what you do unless you deny service. As I said, we've been unwilling to do this.

    Don't know why you think it sounds easy. I don't see it that way. But I do believe it can be done if we stop the nonsense and go to wrk doing it. And no, we don't at all have to be poorer. Taxes will not equal what we spend right now on insurance premiums. So working people will likely see more money in their checks. Businesses will be more equal to the rest of the world. It has several benefits.

    Our biggest problem will be an aging population. But eventually that tide will turn. And if we quit fighting needless wars, bailing out businesses, and redistributing wealth to the wealthy, we can create a very workable system.
    Well comparatively speaking you have fairly well reasoned arguments, but realize the pro-UHC crowd in general seems really geeked about universal access and not really aware of a need for cost-control or how to achieve it. Even as a libertarian I'd rather have a cost-controlled government system than our cost-uncontrollable status quo. What we have right now is disastrous, with or without PPACA.

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Well comparatively speaking you have fairly well reasoned arguments, but realize the pro-UHC crowd in general seems really geeked about universal access and not really aware of a need for cost-control or how to achieve it. Even as a libertarian I'd rather have a cost-controlled government system than our cost-uncontrollable status quo. What we have right now is disastrous, with or without PPACA.
    And that last part we can certainly agree on.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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