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Thread: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Of course we rolled back regulations on banks, and are still reluctant to go far enough to actually stop that greed thing.
    That greed thing is what supplies massive funds for the campaigns of our congress critters. Few are willing to bite (or even slap) the hand that feeds them.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    That greed thing is what supplies massive funds for the campaigns of our congress critters. Few are willing to bite (or even slap) the hand that feeds them.
    No argument on that.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    Agreed, ever since LBJ started his "war on poverty" and Congress started interfering with the system. Government involvement always raises the costs and decreases the efficiency of any system.
    I think it has more to do with the medical profession keeping people alive, who would otherwise die, for an extra five years. Litigation is probably not helping keep healthcare costs down either.

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    I assume then that you haven't actually experienced it yet, and your opinion comes from the promotional material?
    It comes from parents who use it and have no complaints.

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    You are certainly correct that the medical industry is focused around the insurance companies--because they are footing a good chunk of the bill. The only difference is that you don't really want to put it into the hands of "the American people", but you want to put it into the hands of government. Sure we elect those folks, but it's not like we've done a great job of it, so why would we expect better from them with healthcare.

    Think about this. Why has the Lasik procedure gone down in price? It isn't covered by any insurance and it isn't controlled by government. All the country needs is a lot more competition and here government can help. They can allow for the insurance coverage across state lines and they can implement catastrophic coverage for all Americans. All Obamacare seems to do is create more rules and make things more complex--sort of like taxes.

    If I posted something here that you disagree with, please let me know what it is. If all you think is that I didn't go far enough, then you don't seem like someone who is willing to compromise.
    I don't really have this faith in competition the way some people do. There's just too much collusion and monopoly that comes as a natural result of unrestrained business dealings to think that competition is some kind of magic pill. The image of businesses constantly fighting to be better in order to steal customers from their competitors is a nice one, but that's only part of it. The part where they all slowly raise their prices because it doesn't alter the balance of power is true, too. I mean, what really is the difference between an iphone and a droid other than just preferring one system or the other? There's no competition there, but the prices go up at about the same rate. They cut costs on customer service at about the same rate. They take away privacy and sell your data, and there's no alternatives because they all do it. Those are the kind of things you need something stronger, like government, to deal with. Competition doesn't solve that.

    Also, I think you and I have a very different view of the relationship between government and people. Government is a tool of the people. It's our employee and it only does what we allow it to do. Unfortunately, we sold it to the highest bidder. We need to fix that. That's why I argue so strongly for public financing of elections. You will get politicians who answer to the people again when they don't have to answer to wealthy donors. The hands of government and the hands of the people should be the same thing. We need to make it that way again.
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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Unless you count the fact that when the airlines "messed up" and allowed morons "armed" with boxcutters to drive their aircraft into buildings that the gov't assumed liability for that "mistake" and supplied them massive amounts of free security personnel, paid the claims of victims (an average of $1.7 million each) using tax money and called it "fair". Privatizing the profits while sharing (or taking all of) the losses is not quite socialism but it is surely not exactly a "free market" system.

    TARP was a similar scheme to protect the banking (and financial speculation) industry from "failing" to keep making massive amounts of money since they were too big to fail, yet apparently too small to weather the results of their massive greed on their own.
    The cost of national security tends to be born by the public, yes.
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    The cost of national security tends to be born by the public, yes.
    Yet no such action was taken in response to the Fort Hood shooting or for the Boston marathon bombing. Requiring U.S. based airlines/airports to have better security and even inspecting/grounding those airlines that did not pass muster is all that the gov't need to have done.

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    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    I don't really have this faith in competition the way some people do. There's just too much collusion and monopoly that comes as a natural result of unrestrained business dealings to think that competition is some kind of magic pill. The image of businesses constantly fighting to be better in order to steal customers from their competitors is a nice one, but that's only part of it. The part where they all slowly raise their prices because it doesn't alter the balance of power is true, too. I mean, what really is the difference between an iphone and a droid other than just preferring one system or the other? There's no competition there, but the prices go up at about the same rate. They cut costs on customer service at about the same rate. They take away privacy and sell your data, and there's no alternatives because they all do it. Those are the kind of things you need something stronger, like government, to deal with. Competition doesn't solve that.

    Also, I think you and I have a very different view of the relationship between government and people. Government is a tool of the people. It's our employee and it only does what we allow it to do. Unfortunately, we sold it to the highest bidder. We need to fix that. That's why I argue so strongly for public financing of elections. You will get politicians who answer to the people again when they don't have to answer to wealthy donors. The hands of government and the hands of the people should be the same thing. We need to make it that way again.
    I'm seeing contradictions in what you say. You don't have faith in competition and then use collusion as an example. You view government as a tool of the people and then you point out that it is sold to the highest bidder. I understand and appreciate both the idealism and realism in what you write, but I don't see a solution in what you say.

    I believe that government can play a very good referee in business just as was done with labeling of food items in the grocery store. You can look at a standardized label for a range of products (supplied by generally few vendors) and you can judge a product based on calories, sodium, etc. and yes, price. As you have probably seen, when surveyed on some complex medical procedures (yes, non-elective procedures to the earlier poster) you've seen a wide range of prices. If people can actually see the cost and make their own value judgment, they can make informed decisions. Now they don't worry about the price except for the portion they have to play and hospitals, etc. game the pricing because of insurance companies pricing, negotiated rates, and disallowances. The patient is far removed from a value decision. They receive a bill for a lab test and then the doctor tells them they are fine. Was the test worth the price?

    Yes, I do view government differently. I see them for exactly as what you characterize them as, and I don't want to see government play a major role in healthcare for the very same reasons. In a number of ways they could be very helpful. I prefer when referees are neutral in a game and not another team competing.

    So while we seek fixes for the bad parts of government, let's try to limit them to issues where there is wide agreement and they can play a useful role. I have no comment on this thread about public financing of elections as I view that as off topic and I don't want to derail this one.

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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by Buck Ewer View Post
    Maybe the textbook of Rush...
    As I have said before , All governments "redistribute" wealth. If you oppose this you define yourself as an anarchist. There are no governments that do not redistribute wealth.
    In a single payer system the government would not own hospitals or drug factories or employ doctors. How could you see that as "ownership"?
    LOL!! You are quibbling about the word, "ownership". Ownership has nothing to do with it.

    As I've said before, the one who pays the bills is the one who call the shots...the one who has the control. If you rely on insurance coverage for every bit of your health care, you are giving control over your health care to the insurance company. If you rely on the government to pay for every bit of your health care, you are giving control over your health care to the government. Either way, you are allowing some other organization to call the shots. You are giving up your own personal control.

    I, and a lot of other people, really don't have the confidence in the government to effectively and efficiently control my health care. And with the excessive government control of heath insurance companies, I don't have much confidence in insurance companies, either. But it all is a result of too much government control.
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    re: Reid says Obamacare just a step toward eventual single-payer system[W:1539]

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    It's supposed to be that way.

    I've paid tens of thoudsands for health insurance over my working career and never see a doctor. I'm still grateful for the asset protection if ever I do need hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of healthcare. That's why they call it insurance.
    Then its even worse off because your paying for medical insurance IN ADDITION to a possible future medical plan which you cant use for 65 years. Medicare is not insurance because you have no immediate benefit. Standard health insurance is because you see an immediate benefit.

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