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Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

There is a huge difference between looking at an envelope from a letter sent by an individual compared to looking at every envelope from every letter in the country, entering the to and from data in a database, and then doing analyses of that data. The difference is that one act impinges on two people's privacy in a limited manner, the other provides extensive information on every resident of the country. If all of a person's mail or e-meil to and from information is analyzed it is possible to determine:
  • where that person banks
  • which credit cards they use
  • their political affiliations
  • their religious affiliations
  • the type of work they do
  • their friends and family
  • their hobbies
  • their shopping habits

Do we really want the government to have all of this information on all of us and and and use it to to find patterns, affiliations and trends? Can we trust them not to look at the content of selected messages without

In my view, it is more likely that that the public will be harmed by elements in the government abusing this information and power than the public being harmed by a terrorist attack because we didn't do it.

Bubble bursting notice: we already do that: MICT & MCP. These USPS programs are decades old. If they want to document my junk mail, have at it..
 
I never said that everyone who disagrees with me is evil.

Anyone who is, or was, employed as a contractor or government employee to be part of these surveillance operations (that would include FISA judges) has a financial and professional conflict of interest that makes the neutrality of their position unlikely. We know what they are going to say in advance, unless they are one of the very few who are willing to be a whistleblower.

There are many lawyers who are advocates, professors, writers, commentators etc. that you can quote to support your claim that most lawyers think these recently revealed practices are constitutional. If you can't find them, then it appears that your claim was fabricated.

What claim? That there are legal experts that disagree with you? I'm sorry but federal judges are indeed legal experts. So that's not fabricated.
 
Bubble bursting notice: we already do that: MICT & MCP. These USPS programs are decades old. If they want to document my junk mail, have at it..

Past programs or practices do not justify new rights abuses, even if they are similar.

James J. Wedick, a former FBI agent, said of MICT, “It’s a treasure trove of information. Looking at just the outside of letters and other mail, I can see who you bank with, who you communicate with — all kinds of useful information that gives investigators leads that they can then follow up on with a subpoena.”[1] He also said the program "can be easily abused because it’s so easy to use and you don’t have to go through a judge to get the information. You just fill out a form.”

MICT is different, although it was also a secret until recently. MICT "enables the Postal Service to retroactively track mail correspondence at the request of law enforcement. It was created in the aftermath of the 2001 anthrax attacks..."* not decades ago.

Other differences: "The US Postal Service does not maintain a massive centralized database of the letter images.......the scanning machines at the mail processing centers only keeps images of the letters they scan. The images are retained for a week to 30 days and then destroyed."*

These differences are significant. Specific info only is made available to law enforcement, it is not retained and kept in a database, so there is no data on the entire populace available for analyses. It is much less of an invasion of privacy than the programs retaining phone and internet information.

I could not find anything on MCP.

*Wikipedia
 
They over ruled the Defense of Marriage Act recently.

I don't have time to list more, but it seems like they modify or strike down at least a couple of federal bills nearly every year.

Thanks for that. Yes, it is a rare event. I wish it were routine, because the legislative product is really lousy.

The court can't really modify a law, it can either strike a part of it, or the totality of it. Sometimes, like Roberts just demonstrated recently, even though a bill is not proposed as being a tax, the court can call it a tax.

Sophistry? By all means, but so it is c. 2013 in the United States of Oligarchy. ;)
 
What claim? That there are legal experts that disagree with you? I'm sorry but federal judges are indeed legal experts. So that's not fabricated.

You originally said that "many (most, frankly) legal experts don't think this is unconstitutional." You have no evidence to support that claim.

Federal judges are legal experts, but if they are FISA judges then they have a conflict of interest.

"Proceedings before the FISA court are ex parte and non-adversarial. The court hears evidence presented solely by the Department of Justice. There is no provision for a release of information regarding such hearings, or for the record of information actually collected.....Chief Justice John Roberts appointed all of the current (as of 2013) judges, only one of whom was nominated by a Democratic President."

To be accurate it seems that your original statement "many (most, frankly) legal experts don't think this is unconstitutional" should be changed to:

"Based on the presumed continuing use of these programs, we can assume that a least one of the eleven FISA judges concluded that the programs are constitutional based on the information the government provided the courts."

That is not even close to a consensus of "many (most, frankly) legal experts."
 
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Thanks for that. Yes, it is a rare event. I wish it were routine, because the legislative product is really lousy.

The court can't really modify a law, it can either strike a part of it, or the totality of it. Sometimes, like Roberts just demonstrated recently, even though a bill is not proposed as being a tax, the court can call it a tax.

Sophistry? By all means, but so it is c. 2013 in the United States of Oligarchy. ;)

I meant "strike a portion of a law" when I said "modify" it. It is a modification, but you are correct that they can't do a rewrite or add provisions to a law.
 
You originally said that "many (most, frankly) legal experts don't think this is unconstitutional." You have no evidence to support that claim.

Well, considering that no one with the power to do anything about it has considered it so, you're gonna have to face that fact. Or is that just a coincidence? Maybe a conspiracy?

Federal judges are legal experts, but if they are FISA judges then they have a conflict of interest.

Why? They could just as easily say no to these programs and still have their job.

"Proceedings before the FISA court are ex parte and non-adversarial. The court hears evidence presented solely by the Department of Justice. There is no provision for a release of information regarding such hearings, or for the record of information actually collected."

Good job, wiki.

To be accurate it seems that your original statement "many (most, frankly) legal experts don't think this is unconstitutional" should be changed to "based on the continuing use of these programs, we have to assume that a majority of the eleven FISA judges concluded that the programs are constitutional based on the information the government provided the courts." That is not even close to a consensus of "many (most, frankly) legal experts."

What consensus are you aware of? The fine legal minds at debatepolitics.com?
 
Past programs or practices do not justify new rights abuses, even if they are similar.



I could not find anything on MCP.

Maybe that's called legal precedent...


Bottom line is that while you don't agree with them, these various programs are all legal & constitutional, that's why they continue to exist.
 
Maybe that's called legal precedent...


Bottom line is that while you don't agree with them, these various programs are all legal & constitutional, that's why they continue to exist.

These secret programs can be considered legal and constitutional because one FISA judge, hearing evidence from the government only, ruled that they are. Even the Supreme Court has been known to reverse its own wrong decisions, so that is not very convincing evidence of constitutionality in my view.
 
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...What consensus are you aware of?...

I made no claim that there is a consensus You are the one who said "many (most, frankly) legal experts don't think this is unconstitutional" without presenting a shred of evidence.
 
I made no claim that there is a consensus You are the one who said "many (most, frankly) legal experts don't think this is unconstitutional" without presenting a shred of evidence.

The evidence is not a single person- federal judges all, with no fear of losing their jobs and part of no administration- who had the opportunity to put a kibosh on this for over a decade, did so.

They all were and are legal minds that dwarf any here. And they all allowed it as constitutional. There's not much more to say.
 
These secret programs can be considered legal and constitutional because one FISA judge, hearing evidence from the government only, ruled that they are. Even the Supreme Court has been known to reverse its own wrong decisions, so that is not very convincing evidence of constitutionality in my view.

If congress doesn't like it have them change FISA...until then they're constitutional.
 
The evidence is not a single person- federal judges all, with no fear of losing their jobs and part of no administration- who had the opportunity to put a kibosh on this for over a decade, did so.........

One FISA judge didn't like the situation:

On December 16, 2005, The New York Times reported that the Bush administration had been conducting surveillance against U.S. citizens without the knowledge of the court since 2002.[9] On December 20, 2005, Judge James Robertson resigned his position with the court, apparently in protest of the secret surveillance,[10] and later, in the wake of the Snowden leaks of 2013, criticized the court-sanctioned expansion of the scope of government surveillance and its being allowed to craft a secret body of law.[11] The government's apparent circumvention of the court started prior to the increase in court-ordered modifications to warrant requests.
 
One FISA judge didn't like the situation:

On December 16, 2005, The New York Times reported that the Bush administration had been conducting surveillance against U.S. citizens without the knowledge of the court since 2002.[9] On December 20, 2005, Judge James Robertson resigned his position with the court, apparently in protest of the secret surveillance,[10] and later, in the wake of the Snowden leaks of 2013, criticized the court-sanctioned expansion of the scope of government surveillance and its being allowed to craft a secret body of law.[11] The government's apparent circumvention of the court started prior to the increase in court-ordered modifications to warrant requests.

Excellent! I was hoping you'd go that route! This would imply the majority think it's constitutional, wouldn't it*? Which is what I initially said. You're going to have to come to terms with the idea that many experts disagree with you. It's not at all the black and white issue so many here would like to believe.

*we don't know why he resigned, though. That's simply supposition. But let's assume it was, because that supports my position that the majority are fine with this. Which is what you refused to accept.
 
Excellent! I was hoping you'd go that route! This would imply the majority think it's constitutional, wouldn't it*? Which is what I initially said. You're going to have to come to terms with the idea that many experts disagree with you. It's not at all the black and white issue so many here would like to believe.

*we don't know why he resigned, though. That's simply supposition. But let's assume it was, because that supports my position that the majority are fine with this. Which is what you refused to accept.

I never denied that the majority of the FISA judges, after hearing presentations from the government only, approve of most of the recent surveillance activity. Presumably only one judge had to approve the recently publicly revealed practice of collecting virtually every resident of the USA's telephone and internet data, so we don't know if they all consider it constitutional. That may be a reasonable assumption since none of them have resigned or spoken out. I do not accept the argument that these judges are impartial. They do not hear presentations from anyone opposing surveillance and they are well entrenched in the intelligence/surveillance establishment.

There is still no evidence that the claim "many (most, frankly) legal experts don't think this is unconstitutional" is true.
 
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Intel isn't white or black- it's grey.

The American people want safety and liberty, and while a delicate balance must exist, one must also accept the protocols needed to ensure that liberty.

As a nation we've tasked the various branches of government with executing on that mission; you may not all like how it's done, you may question the methods and morality of such, but at the end of it all, that blanket of freedom is preserved by the methods you question.

No doubt that abuses could exist; after all such mission is carried out by humans, but to call for a complete tear down of the system because in theory something could go wrong is naive and dangerous.
 
I don't recall anyone calling for a complete tear down of our national security systems. Rather, we want these efforts to be limited by the constitution, especially the Bill of Rights, and we want as much transparency and accountability as practical. If keeping the government from violating our rights means a couple more attacks, I'll accept it. Because without a government that respects our human rights there is nothing left to protect, our enemies will have already won.
 
I never denied that the majority of the FISA judges, after hearing presentations from the government only, approve of most of the recent surveillance activity. Presumably only one judge had to approve the recently publicly revealed practice of collecting virtually every resident of the USA's telephone and internet data, so we don't know if they all consider it constitutional. That may be a reasonable assumption since none of them have resigned or spoken out. I do not accept the argument that these judges are impartial. They do not hear presentations from anyone opposing surveillance and they are well entrenched in the intelligence/surveillance establishment.

There is still no evidence that the claim "many (most, frankly) legal experts don't think this is unconstitutional" is true.

Yes, there is.

I don't know why you think just one judge approved this. It's been approved and re-approved for quite some time now. The only legal experts that know all of it believe it is constitutional, save possibly one. That's a majority.

I'm sure you'd like to cast the net much wider, but...well, you can't. So we're forced to accept the conclusion. I'm very sorry.
 
I don't recall anyone calling for a complete tear down of our national security systems. Rather, we want these efforts to be limited by the constitution, especially the Bill of Rights, and we want as much transparency and accountability as practical. If keeping the government from violating our rights means a couple more attacks, I'll accept it. Because without a government that respects our human rights there is nothing left to protect, our enemies will have already won.

You've missed many posts by others then.. I suppose in theory you're willing to accept more attacks to preserve your view of liberty and that's fine, it's your opinion- everyone says that but when the shyt hits the fan reality hits. This is why after all the huffing and puffing Congress supports the laws these programs are based on; they don't want to be the ones who failed the American People on that safety promise.
 
1. Thank you very much - that is a powerful compliment and I want you to know that I understand and appreciate it.
You have earned it.

2. I wish I could give you that reassurance directly, but all we are really allowed to speak as people who might have access (members of the military, intelligence community, government, etc) to is what is already in the public sphere and, in many cases, not even to that. The particulars, though, would have been pretty closely held within the NSA, even if some of the broad outlines were more publicly available, because of the scrutiny with which any intelligence on American citizens receives. If you get Intel that mentions an American person, it never (in the general community, that I have seen) gives identifying information on that person. It will just say "An American Person vacationing in UngaBungaLand was contacted by WeHateAmericaYayJihad (WHAYJ) at grid coordinates xxxxx-xxxxx....", etc. Only those who were read in would have had the kind of access that is potentially worrisome.

While I never worked directly for the NSA I was, well, I won't say. I fed them, how is that? Everyone in the NSA I ever had dealings with was honorable. I am not concerned in the least about the people I knew to be there when I was active. Times change. Now we are spying on Americans based on general warrants. We fought the world's greatest superpower to stop it.

3. I will say that the program gives me pause. It seems that unless protected by strong safeguards it could lend itself to incredible abuse. I think that the unwillingness on the part of Congress to take a more active role than that which was basically forced upon it by the Executive is more than lamentable, it is potentially dangerous.
There are no safeguards that are strong enough. Those who build the police state apparatus, no matter how well intentioned, are dangerous to our liberties.

4. That being said, I am not convinced that this program violates the Constitution - electronically it seems to be the equivalent of you writing a "To" and a "From" address on your mail envelope. Nobody at the NSA opens your mail unless you put the electronic equivalent of "Mr Gee Had, 911 Pakistan Lane" in your "To" block, or have it in the "From" block when you receive it.
I see things more broadly. The IRS has ALL of my financial data. The NSA has all of my email data, my text message data, my photos sent via cell phone, all of my internet usage, my search queries, my phone calls...everything. And now they want my medical records.

"Yes sir. I will do whatever you tell me so that you do not use the combination of things you know about me against me. I will be as compliant as you want. Oh, you need a fifth vote for Obamacare. No problem Sir!"

Of such things very hard tyrannies are created.

The ability to open our mail (electronic, voice, physical, you name it) could lend itself to powerful abuse in the hands of unchecked actors. So can the ability to deploy the military, or federalize the National Guard. That is why I focus in on the degree to which these programs have oversight from all three branches of government.

:shrug: and that's about the best I can do. It's not a panacea. It probably has helped save lives. It is probably also potentially dangerous - just like Government (like fire, a dangerous servant and a fearful master, as the man said).
You remain an honorable man. I believe you are on the wrong side of history. I still admire you. I hope you will eventually change your mind.
 
“If this [NSA phone surveillance] came up to the Supreme Court with this Supreme Court, they would declare it unconstitutional,” Laura Murphy, director of the ACLU’s Washington legislative office....

....Geoffrey Stone, a University of Chicago law professor who worked at the school with President Barack Obama, said the ACLU’s position is “reasonable,” but he doesn’t see the court issuing a ruling that shuts down the phone surveillance program....

...And based strictly on existing Supreme Court case law, says George Washington University law professor Orin Kerr, the group’s arguments are “weak.”And this time around, says Kerr, “the ACLU’s goal is probably to get discovery” — to force the government to declassify more information about the programs — “not to win.”....

....But even skeptics of the ACLU’s chances concede the potential for progress. Edward Snowden’s leaks to The Guardian and The Washington Post may not lead to a wholesale dismantling of the NSA’s dragnet surveillance efforts — but the revelations could force the high court to reevaluate its interpretations of privacy law.....

....Freedom Watch, a group led by former Justice Department official Larry Klayman, has filed two class action suits: one over phone surveillance and a second over PRISM, the NSA’s system of surveillance of the Internet activities of non-U.S. citizens abroad....

....(Rand) Paul has launched an effort to gather the support of Americans who would potentially want to sign onto a class action suit, and is working with lawyers to determine whether to sign on to the ACLU suit, join another existing suit or launch a new one....

....Filing suit within days of the emergence of new information was “to some degree reflexive” for the ACLU, said Stephen Vladeck, a law professor at American University who successfully challenged the Bush administration’s use of military tribunals at the Guantánamo Bay detention facility. “But I think they’re some of the brightest lawyers around, and they don’t file these things willy nilly,” he added. “It’s pretty clear off the bat what the issues are.”.....

....this case doesn’t face the same hurdles” on those grounds that torpedoed previous suits, [standing] said Patrick Toomey, a national security attorney working on the case for the ACLU....

...And if the courts do move forward, they will in part be looking to the precedent of the Supreme Court’s 1979 ruling in Smith v. Maryland. In that case, Justice Harry Blackmun wrote that “a person has no legitimate expectation of privacy in information he voluntarily turns over to third parties.”

With the development of new technology, some justices have begun to voice doubts about that decision. When the court ruled in 2012 that the government could not track a suspect using a GPS device attached to his car without getting a warrant, Justice Sonia Sotomayor wrote in a concurring opinion that the approach established by Smith “is ill suited to the digital age, in which people reveal a great deal of information about themselves to third parties in the course of carrying out mundane tasks.”...


....The ACLU isn’t the only group to have taken legal action since the revelation of details of the phone-tracking and PRISM programs: Snowden’s leaks have translated into renewed support for legal efforts across the political spectrum.

Freedom Watch, a group led by former Justice Department official Larry Klayman, has filed two class action suits: one over phone surveillance and a second over PRISM, the NSA’s system of surveillance of the Internet activities of non-U.S. citizens abroad....

Read more: Experts: NSA lawsuit could break new legal ground - Jennifer Epstein - POLITICO.com
 
Right. But you were an MI officer and had to look him up on wiki? Are you not a student of history? Or do you consider reading Patton speeches good enough?
Yes. I was Military Intelligence. Tactical Intel and strategic sigint. Muddy boots and class A uniforms. I spent about half of my time below Corps level and half of my time at Corps level and above.

My areas of interest were the Great Patriotic War, WWII in general, the history of mobile armored warfare, surprise, deception and intelligence in general, the history of intelligence, codes, cyphers and systems, strategy, operational art and tactics. I regularly read the History of the Peleopnesian War, Machiavelli's Discourses, Sun Tzu, Jomini and Clausewitz.

I have read quite a bit about Islamofascism. Frankly I am glad I am not an Intello today because all of their names sound the same. I know they shouldn't. I started learning classical Arabic, routinely practicing with a Lebanese American. When he moved away I stopped.

Any good student knows to use the resources available to him. I daily dip into a wide variety of sites gleaned from a carefully crafted Tweetdeck. Not one of those involves military or political history. Maybe I will fix that.

My time in the foxhole was between the end of the Viet-nam war and the start of Gulf War I. I was manning the desk during the first scud launch.

So sneer if you must. I am very comfortable either way.
 
Maybe that's called legal precedent...

Bottom line is that while you don't agree with them, these various programs are all legal & constitutional, that's why they continue to exist.
For a very long time slavery was legal and constitutional. It continued to exist because it was useful for one group to exploit another. In the same way these programs are useful to politicians so they will continue to exist until we rise up and demand that they be leashed.
 
For a very long time slavery was legal and constitutional. It continued to exist because it was useful for one group to exploit another. In the same way these programs are useful to politicians so they will continue to exist until we rise up and demand that they be leashed.

That was sad; comparing slavery to intel collection is pitiful.
 
Intel isn't white or black- it's grey.

The American people want safety and liberty, and while a delicate balance must exist, one must also accept the protocols needed to ensure that liberty.

As a nation we've tasked the various branches of government with executing on that mission; you may not all like how it's done, you may question the methods and morality of such, but at the end of it all, that blanket of freedom is preserved by the methods you question.

No doubt that abuses could exist; after all such mission is carried out by humans, but to call for a complete tear down of the system because in theory something could go wrong is naive and dangerous.

I agree with grey. So why do you give us the black or white position that we have to tear down the whole thing in order to stop one bad part of it?

You don't get to spy on Americans just because you can and ten or eleven men say it is okay. We went to war with a superpower to end the use of general search warrants. You do not get to circumvent the Constitution by creating agreements with other countries to spy on us and then share the data.

Spy with glee and gusto on our enemies. That is the whole point of intelligence agencies. Any other stance leads to a police state.
 
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