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Thread: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    “If this [NSA phone surveillance] came up to the Supreme Court with this Supreme Court, they would declare it unconstitutional,” Laura Murphy, director of the ACLU’s Washington legislative office....

    ....Geoffrey Stone, a University of Chicago law professor who worked at the school with President Barack Obama, said the ACLU’s position is “reasonable,” but he doesn’t see the court issuing a ruling that shuts down the phone surveillance program....

    ...And based strictly on existing Supreme Court case law, says George Washington University law professor Orin Kerr, the group’s arguments are “weak.”And this time around, says Kerr, “the ACLU’s goal is probably to get discovery” — to force the government to declassify more information about the programs — “not to win.”....

    ....But even skeptics of the ACLU’s chances concede the potential for progress. Edward Snowden’s leaks to The Guardian and The Washington Post may not lead to a wholesale dismantling of the NSA’s dragnet surveillance efforts — but the revelations could force the high court to reevaluate its interpretations of privacy law.....

    ....Freedom Watch, a group led by former Justice Department official Larry Klayman, has filed two class action suits: one over phone surveillance and a second over PRISM, the NSA’s system of surveillance of the Internet activities of non-U.S. citizens abroad....

    ....(Rand) Paul has launched an effort to gather the support of Americans who would potentially want to sign onto a class action suit, and is working with lawyers to determine whether to sign on to the ACLU suit, join another existing suit or launch a new one....

    ....Filing suit within days of the emergence of new information was “to some degree reflexive” for the ACLU, said Stephen Vladeck, a law professor at American University who successfully challenged the Bush administration’s use of military tribunals at the Guantánamo Bay detention facility. “But I think they’re some of the brightest lawyers around, and they don’t file these things willy nilly,” he added. “It’s pretty clear off the bat what the issues are.”.....

    ....this case doesn’t face the same hurdles” on those grounds that torpedoed previous suits, [standing] said Patrick Toomey, a national security attorney working on the case for the ACLU....

    ...And if the courts do move forward, they will in part be looking to the precedent of the Supreme Court’s 1979 ruling in Smith v. Maryland. In that case, Justice Harry Blackmun wrote that “a person has no legitimate expectation of privacy in information he voluntarily turns over to third parties.”

    With the development of new technology, some justices have begun to voice doubts about that decision. When the court ruled in 2012 that the government could not track a suspect using a GPS device attached to his car without getting a warrant, Justice Sonia Sotomayor wrote in a concurring opinion that the approach established by Smith “is ill suited to the digital age, in which people reveal a great deal of information about themselves to third parties in the course of carrying out mundane tasks.”...


    ....The ACLU isn’t the only group to have taken legal action since the revelation of details of the phone-tracking and PRISM programs: Snowden’s leaks have translated into renewed support for legal efforts across the political spectrum.

    Freedom Watch, a group led by former Justice Department official Larry Klayman, has filed two class action suits: one over phone surveillance and a second over PRISM, the NSA’s system of surveillance of the Internet activities of non-U.S. citizens abroad....

    Read more: Experts: NSA lawsuit could break new legal ground - Jennifer Epstein - POLITICO.com

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Right. But you were an MI officer and had to look him up on wiki? Are you not a student of history? Or do you consider reading Patton speeches good enough?
    Yes. I was Military Intelligence. Tactical Intel and strategic sigint. Muddy boots and class A uniforms. I spent about half of my time below Corps level and half of my time at Corps level and above.

    My areas of interest were the Great Patriotic War, WWII in general, the history of mobile armored warfare, surprise, deception and intelligence in general, the history of intelligence, codes, cyphers and systems, strategy, operational art and tactics. I regularly read the History of the Peleopnesian War, Machiavelli's Discourses, Sun Tzu, Jomini and Clausewitz.

    I have read quite a bit about Islamofascism. Frankly I am glad I am not an Intello today because all of their names sound the same. I know they shouldn't. I started learning classical Arabic, routinely practicing with a Lebanese American. When he moved away I stopped.

    Any good student knows to use the resources available to him. I daily dip into a wide variety of sites gleaned from a carefully crafted Tweetdeck. Not one of those involves military or political history. Maybe I will fix that.

    My time in the foxhole was between the end of the Viet-nam war and the start of Gulf War I. I was manning the desk during the first scud launch.

    So sneer if you must. I am very comfortable either way.

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhat View Post
    Maybe that's called legal precedent...

    Bottom line is that while you don't agree with them, these various programs are all legal & constitutional, that's why they continue to exist.
    For a very long time slavery was legal and constitutional. It continued to exist because it was useful for one group to exploit another. In the same way these programs are useful to politicians so they will continue to exist until we rise up and demand that they be leashed.

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    Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    For a very long time slavery was legal and constitutional. It continued to exist because it was useful for one group to exploit another. In the same way these programs are useful to politicians so they will continue to exist until we rise up and demand that they be leashed.
    That was sad; comparing slavery to intel collection is pitiful.

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhat View Post
    Intel isn't white or black- it's grey.

    The American people want safety and liberty, and while a delicate balance must exist, one must also accept the protocols needed to ensure that liberty.

    As a nation we've tasked the various branches of government with executing on that mission; you may not all like how it's done, you may question the methods and morality of such, but at the end of it all, that blanket of freedom is preserved by the methods you question.

    No doubt that abuses could exist; after all such mission is carried out by humans, but to call for a complete tear down of the system because in theory something could go wrong is naive and dangerous.
    I agree with grey. So why do you give us the black or white position that we have to tear down the whole thing in order to stop one bad part of it?

    You don't get to spy on Americans just because you can and ten or eleven men say it is okay. We went to war with a superpower to end the use of general search warrants. You do not get to circumvent the Constitution by creating agreements with other countries to spy on us and then share the data.

    Spy with glee and gusto on our enemies. That is the whole point of intelligence agencies. Any other stance leads to a police state.
    Last edited by Misterveritis; 08-06-13 at 11:00 PM.

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhat View Post
    That was sad; comparing slavery to intel collection is pitiful.
    In your mind perhaps. Just because a thing has been done under the color of law for a period of time does not make it right.

    Yo do not get to spy on Americans just because you can.

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    I don't recall anyone calling for a complete tear down of our national security systems. Rather, we want these efforts to be limited by the constitution, especially the Bill of Rights, and we want as much transparency and accountability as practical. If keeping the government from violating our rights means a couple more attacks, I'll accept it. Because without a government that respects our human rights there is nothing left to protect, our enemies will have already won.
    It seems to me that the greatest threat to individual liberty in America is the American federal government.

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    Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    I agree with gray. So why do you give us the black or white position that we have to tear down the whole thing in order to stop one bad part of it?

    You don't get to spy on Americans just because you can and ten or eleven men say it is okay. We went to war with a superpower to end the use of general search warrants. You do not get to circumvent the Constitution by creating agreements with other countries to spy on us and then share the data.

    Spy with glee and gusto on our enemies. That is the whole point of intelligence agencies. Any other stance leads to a police state.
    The Revolutionary War wasn't about warrants- it was about contracts- our commercial interests were at stake, lets not kid ourselves. That's a topic for another thread btw.

    You should come to terms with the realities of intel activities; they occur in the grey area for a reason. Congress can have as much transparency as it asks for; most of it won't reach the public, but that's by design.

    It seems to me that most people who oppose the NSA's activities do so with the fear that they are the targets; in such case conclusions are emotional rather than logical.

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    Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post

    Yo do not get to spy on Americans just because you can.
    No one is spying on you- get over it- you're not that important.

    Just because the NSA vacuums up the entire electronic spectrum doesn't mean they're targeting you or Americans for that matter.

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhat View Post
    The Revolutionary War wasn't about warrants- it was about contracts- our commercial interests were at stake, lets not kid ourselves. That's a topic for another thread btw.

    You should come to terms with the realities of intel activities; they occur in the grey area for a reason. Congress can have as much transparency as it asks for; most of it won't reach the public, but that's by design.

    It seems to me that most people who oppose the NSA's activities do so with the fear that they are the targets; in such case conclusions are emotional rather than logical.
    Do you not read? Are your eyes dimmed? I spent about half of my adult life in the intelligence business.

    And yes, the thuggery of general warrants was among those acts that propelled the colonies to war with a super power.

    You do gradually unmask yourself.

    Oh, I don't fear that I am a target per se. I am mere collateral damage. The target are men and women of influence like the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. And have you ever wondered why the establishment Republicans are all so timid?

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