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Thread: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

  1. #341
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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    I believe you to be a very honorable man. Are you telling me that you have direct knowledge of this program and the NSA is not gathering data on American citizens? If you tell me that you have direct knowledge of this program and that it is not gathering data on every one of us then I shall reconsider my stance.
    1. Thank you very much - that is a powerful compliment and I want you to know that I understand and appreciate it.

    2. I wish I could give you that reassurance directly, but all we are really allowed to speak as people who might have access (members of the military, intelligence community, government, etc) to is what is already in the public sphere and, in many cases, not even to that. The particulars, though, would have been pretty closely held within the NSA, even if some of the broad outlines were more publicly available, because of the scrutiny with which any intelligence on American citizens receives. If you get Intel that mentions an American person, it never (in the general community, that I have seen) gives identifying information on that person. It will just say "An American Person vacationing in UngaBungaLand was contacted by WeHateAmericaYayJihad (WHAYJ) at grid coordinates xxxxx-xxxxx....", etc. Only those who were read in would have had the kind of access that is potentially worrisome.

    3. I will say that the program gives me pause. It seems that unless protected by strong safeguards it could lend itself to incredible abuse. I think that the unwillingness on the part of Congress to take a more active role than that which was basically forced upon it by the Executive is more than lamentable, it is potentially dangerous.

    4. That being said, I am not convinced that this program violates the Constitution - electronically it seems to be the equivalent of you writing a "To" and a "From" address on your mail envelope. Nobody at the NSA opens your mail unless you put the electronic equivalent of "Mr Gee Had, 911 Pakistan Lane" in your "To" block, or have it in the "From" block when you receive it.


    The ability to open our mail (electronic, voice, physical, you name it) could lend itself to powerful abuse in the hands of unchecked actors. So can the ability to deploy the military, or federalize the National Guard. That is why I focus in on the degree to which these programs have oversight from all three branches of government.

    and that's about the best I can do. It's not a panacea. It probably has helped save lives. It is probably also potentially dangerous - just like Government (like fire, a dangerous servant and a fearful master, as the man said).
    Last edited by cpwill; 08-06-13 at 08:43 AM.

  2. #342
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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    The Supreme Court routinely rules that laws passed by congress are unconstitutional. The fourth amendment is not ambiguous, anyone comparing current surveillance practices with the language of the fourth amendment can see the violation. (if they are willing to be honest)
    I would thank you very much if you could give me an example of the USSC ruling that a law, any law, passed by congress was unconstitutional. And even moreso if you could make the case that such things are routine.


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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    BAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH

    looooooooooooooooool

    Is this where you pretend that 'probable' isn't subjective, Henry? I see there's a couple more pages after you posted this. Let's see you argue that it's objective for a few pages (fingers crossed, please please please do this). No wonder you're a conspiracy theorist.
    Terrific answer OWO. But don't feel like the Lone Ranger. No government official likes to be asked that question either. It makes them very uncomfortable.

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    FISA judges? Ya know...federal judges.
    Any independent experts? (people like John Woo don't count as independent.)

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    ....That being said, I am not convinced that this program violates the Constitution - electronically it seems to be the equivalent of you writing a "To" and a "From" address on your mail envelope. Nobody at the NSA opens your mail unless you put the electronic equivalent of "Mr Gee Had, 911 Pakistan Lane" in your "To" block, or have it in the "From" block when you receive it......
    There is a huge difference between looking at an envelope from a letter sent by an individual compared to looking at every envelope from every letter in the country, entering the to and from data in a database, and then doing analyses of that data. The difference is that one act impinges on two people's privacy in a limited manner, the other provides extensive information on every resident of the country. If all of a person's mail or e-meil to and from information is analyzed it is possible to determine:
    • where that person banks
    • which credit cards they use
    • their political affiliations
    • their religious affiliations
    • the type of work they do
    • their friends and family
    • their hobbies
    • their shopping habits


    Do we really want the government to have all of this information on all of us and and and use it to to find patterns, affiliations and trends? Can we trust them not to look at the content of selected messages without

    In my view, it is more likely that that the public will be harmed by elements in the government abusing this information and power than the public being harmed by a terrorist attack because we didn't do it.
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 08-06-13 at 02:50 PM.

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    I would thank you very much if you could give me an example of the USSC ruling that a law, any law, passed by congress was unconstitutional. And even moreso if you could make the case that such things are routine.

    They over ruled the Defense of Marriage Act recently.

    I don't have time to list more, but it seems like they modify or strike down at least a couple of federal bills nearly every year.

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Google, when it is not in cahoots with my enemy, is my friend:

    Abdullah Yusuf Azzam
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Abdullah Yusuf Azzam
    Abdullah Yusuf Azzam (Arabic: عبد الله يوسف عزام‎, ‘Abdu’llāh Yūsuf ‘Azzām; 1941 – 24 November 1989) a.k.a. Father of Global Jihad[1][2] was a highly influential Palestinian Sunni Islamic scholar and theologian, who preached in favour of both defensive jihad and offensive jihad by Muslims to help the Afghan mujahideen against the Soviet invaders.[3] He raised funds, recruited and organised the international Islamic volunteer effort of Afghan Arabs through the 1980s, and emphasised the political ascension of Islam.

    I have technical knowledge of the field I work in as well. In addition to that I read. I recommend it to everyone.
    Right. But you were an MI officer and had to look him up on wiki? Are you not a student of history? Or do you consider reading Patton speeches good enough?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Terrific answer OWO. But don't feel like the Lone Ranger. No government official likes to be asked that question either. It makes them very uncomfortable.
    Excellent, conspiracy theorists also get really uncomfortable about it.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Any independent experts? (people like John Woo don't count as independent.)
    They are independent. You asked if there were any that weren't part of the Obama or Bush administrations (which was laughable to being with, that's like asking for a list of current excellent American football players that aren't in the NFL or NCAA). I gave you federal judges.

    Or are you going to give me more qualifiers about who is and isn't independent?

    Is so hard to acknowledge that people that disagree with you might also be intelligent, informed, and not 'evil'? Why do so many of you struggle with this? It's laughable at this point.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    They are independent. You asked if there were any that weren't part of the Obama or Bush administrations (which was laughable to being with, that's like asking for a list of current excellent American football players that aren't in the NFL or NCAA). I gave you federal judges.

    Or are you going to give me more qualifiers about who is and isn't independent?

    Is so hard to acknowledge that people that disagree with you might also be intelligent, informed, and not 'evil'? Why do so many of you struggle with this? It's laughable at this point.
    I never said that everyone who disagrees with me is evil.

    Anyone who is, or was, employed as a contractor or government employee to be part of these surveillance operations (that would include FISA judges) has a financial and professional conflict of interest that makes the neutrality of their position unlikely. We know what they are going to say in advance, unless they are one of the very few who are willing to be a whistleblower.

    There are many lawyers who are advocates, professors, writers, commentators etc. that you can quote to support your claim that most lawyers think these recently revealed practices are constitutional. If you can't find them, then it appears that your claim was fabricated.
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 08-06-13 at 04:57 PM.

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