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Thread: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhat View Post
    Take up arms then; see how far that takes you....what governance did you like btw?
    It seems he likes whatever he agrees with. If he doesn't agree with it, he wants a revolution. There's toddlers out there with more maturity.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    It seems he likes whatever he agrees with. If he doesn't agree with it, he wants a revolution. There's toddlers out there with more maturity.
    Yep! Sad though.

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhat View Post
    The Fourth Amendment not ambiguous? Really..? This is probably one of the most ambiguous parts of The Constitution. Take a look at it.

    You may also want to revisit your history; the US has a long standing tradition of wartime surveillance of the enemy, both foreign and domestic, and while we’re not at war with a State per se, we’re at war nonetheless (whether we should or not is besides the point).

    This tradition of intel collection goes back to our colonial times and is a practice as old as communications itself; during the Revolutionary War George Washington made frequent use of his Army's collection capabilities; he directed the interception of British mail, the opening of such documents and the exploitation of their data. You may argue that this was directed at a foreign power and that’s true, but such logic has extended to other cases; during the Civil War the Union wiretapped the Confederate’s telegraphs and I remind you, without a warrant and while targeting US persons.

    Even in more recent times such as WWI, Wilson authorized the US military to intercept telegraph, telephone and cable communications headed in and out of the US (sound familiar?); he derived this authority from The Constitution and from Congress’ declaration of war, an authorization to use military force that did not explicitly include language related to SIGINT collection methods.

    This was once again done in WWII after Pearl Harbor and one can see how such protocols exist today, in a more technologically advanced manner through the NSA’s (and other's) various programs.

    You may not like the truth for it is counterintuitive to what you believe, but the truth it is nonetheless…
    None of that is comparable to collecting, retaining and analyzing telephone and internet meta data (and content to an unknown degree) from the entire nation.

    Washington's war was before the constitution existed. The actions of the armies during that war may have lead to the public demand for the protections in the Bill of Rights (i.e quartering soldiers in people's homes) The confederates during the civil war were no longer citizens. The government has a long history of violating human rights and the constitution. That does not make it legal or acceptable.

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    Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    None of that is comparable to collecting, retaining and analyzing telephone and internet meta data (and content to an unknown degree) from the entire nation.

    Washington's war was before the constitution existed. The actions of the armies during that war may have lead to the public demand for the protections in the Bill of Rights (i.e quartering soldiers in people's homes) The confederates during the civil war were no longer citizens. The government has a long history of violating human rights and the constitution. That does not make it legal or acceptable.
    Ok, if you say so...LOL history disagrees with you. But that's fine, you go on with your fantasy.

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    No fantasies required. There are plenty of examples of what happens to countries that allow the government to eliminate civil rights protections in the interest of "fighting terrorism."

    On 11 September 1973, the combined Chilean Armed Forces (the Army, Navy, Air Force and the Carabineros) overthrew Allende's government in a coup, during which the presidential palace, La Moneda, was shelled and Allende died.[16] W.....

    The new government rounded up thousands of people and held them in the national stadium, where many were killed, setting the stage for decades of brutal repression that followed. As many as 3,000 people died during Pinochet's years in power, and more than 1,000 are still missing.[17]

    In the months that followed the coup, the junta, with authoring work by historian Gonzalo Vial and admiral Patricio Carvajal, published a book titled El Libro Blanco del cambio de gobierno en Chile (commonly known as El Libro Blanco, "The White Book of the Change of Government in Chile"), where they attempted to justify the coup by claiming that they were in fact anticipating a self-coup (the alleged Plan Zeta, or Plan Z) that Allende's government or its associates were purportedly preparing.

    ...

    Almost immediately after the military's seizure of power, the junta banned all the leftist parties that had constituted Allende's UP coalition.[33] All other parties were placed in "indefinite recess" and were later banned outright. The government's violence was directed not only against dissidents but also against their families and other civilians.[33]......]

    The Rettig Report concluded 2,279 persons who disappeared during the military government were killed for political reasons or as a result of political violence, and approximately 31,947 tortured according to the later Valech Report, while 1,312 were exiled. The latter were chased all over the world by the intelligence agencies. In Latin America, this was made in the frame of Operation Condor, a cooperation plan between the various intelligence agencies of South American countries, assisted by a United States CIA communication base in Panama. Pinochet believed these operations were necessary in order to "save the country from communism".[34] In 2011, commission identified an additional 9,800 victims of political repression during the Pinochet regime. This led to the total number of victims being revised to approximately 40,018, including 3,065 killed.[35]


    Other victims of Condor included, among hundreds of less famous persons, Juan José Torres, the former President of Bolivia, assassinated in Buenos Aires on 2 June 1976; Carmelo Soria, a UN diplomat working for the CEPAL, assassinated in July 1976; Orlando Letelier, a former Chilean ambassador to the United States and minister in Allende's cabinet, assassinated after his release from internment and exile in Washington, D.C. by a car bomb on 21 September 1976. This led to strained relations with the US and to the extradition of Michael Townley, a US citizen who worked for the DINA and had organized Letelier's assassination. Other targeted victims, who escaped assassination, included Christian-Democrat Bernardo Leighton, who escaped an assassination attempt in Rome in 1975 by the Italian terrorist Stefano delle Chiaie; Carlos Altamirano, the leader of the Chilean Socialist Party, targeted for murder in 1975 by Pinochet, along with Volodia Teitelboim, member of the Communist Party; Pascal Allende, the nephew of Salvador Allende and president of the MIR, who escaped an assassination attempt in Costa Rica in March 1976; US Congressman Edward Koch, who became aware in 2001 of relations between death threats and his denunciation of Operation Condor, etc. Furthermore, according to current investigations, Eduardo Frei Montalva, the Christian Democrat President of Chile from 1964 to 1970, may have been poisoned in 1982 by toxin produced by DINA biochemist Eugenio Berrios.[36]

    Protests continued, however, during the 1980s, leading to several scandals. In March 1985, the savage murder of three Communist Party members led to the resignation of César Mendoza, head of the Carabineros and member of the junta since its formation. During a 1986 protest against Pinochet, 21 year old American photographer Rodrigo Rojas DeNegri and 18 year old student Carmen Gloria Quintana were burnt alive, with only Carmen surviving.

    In August 1989, Marcelo Barrios Andres, a 21 year-old member of the FPMR (the armed wing of the PCC, created in 1983, which had attempted to assassinate Pinochet on 7 September 1986), was assassinated by a group of military personnel who were supposed to arrest him on orders of Valparaíso's public prosecutor. However, they simply executed him; this case was included in the Rettig Report.[37] Among the killed and disappeared during the military regime were 440 MIR guerrillas.[38

    Wikipedia

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    Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    No fantasies required. There are plenty of examples of what happens to countries that allow the government to eliminate civil rights protections in the interest of "fighting terrorism."

    On 11 September 1973, the combined Chilean Armed Forces (the Army, Navy, Air Force and the Carabineros) overthrew Allende's government in a coup, during which the presidential palace, La Moneda, was shelled and Allende died.[16] W.....
    LMFAOL I like Chile, but our history is different- if you can't tell then am sorry for you.

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    That was one of the most hardcore slippery slope arguments I've ever read.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    The Stasi infiltrated almost every aspect of GDR life. In the mid-1980s, a network of IMs began growing in both German states; by the time East Germany collapsed in 1989, the Stasi employed 91,015 employees and 173,081 informants.[25] About one of every 63 East Germans collaborated with the Stasi. By at least one estimate, the Stasi maintained greater surveillance over its own people than any secret police force in history.[26] The Stasi employed one full-time agent for every 166 East Germans. The ratios swelled when informers were factored in: counting part-time informers, the Stasi had one informer per 6.5 people. By comparison, the Gestapo employed one secret policeman per 2,000 people. This comparison led Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal to call the Stasi even more oppressive than the Gestapo.[2....

    Tactics employed under Zersetzung generally involved the disruption of the victim’s private or family life. This often included breaking into homes and messing with the contents – moving furniture, altering the timing of an alarm, removing pictures from walls or replacing one variety of tea with another. Other practices included smear campaigns, denunciation, provocation, psychological warfare, psychological subversion, wiretapping, bugging, mysterious phone calls or unnecessary deliveries, even including sending a vibrator to a target's wife. Usually victims had no idea the Stasi were responsible. Many thought they were losing their minds, and mental breakdowns and suicide could result.

    One great advantage of the harassment perpetrated under Zersetzung was that its subtle nature meant that it was able to be denied.

    Wikipedia

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    Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    That was one of the most hardcore slippery slope arguments I've ever read.
    I know huh; his next argument is that of Rome and Caesar... *yawns

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    "trust us"

    "It can't happen here."

    "If you aren't a criminal you have nothing to fear."

    "That was then, this is now."
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 08-05-13 at 08:00 PM.

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