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Thread: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

  1. #171
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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    recently did a search on Google for a particular type of product and now I see adverts for that type of product popping up on various websites that are not related to that product or connected to Google directly. Now thousands of people may know about my interest in that product. Many of those people probably also know about my interest in other types of products and other interests as revealed by my history of Google searches, the YouTube videos I watched, my Facebook activity, and at least some of the other websites I visit. Someone with access to just my Google database can know more about me than my brother knows.
    So what? What damage does this do to you? You are going to have to eventually accept that in a society where social technology is become more and more advanced and more a part of our society, this is going to become a reality. The only solution to this is to rid us of the internet and social networking on the internet. And I think you will be hard pressed to do this. We have already bought into it and I don't think there is any going back now that it is such a fundamental part of our society. I think the only solution to someone like you is to completely disconnect, buy a cabin in the woods and hunt for your own food. While this may be appealing to you, please don't think that the rest of us want to live the same way you do. I actually like that businesses are interested in what I am looking for as a consumer. It will only further improve products and services provided not just in whole, but on an individual level as well. Who does not like individually tailored service? Is this not why most of us save up tons of money to go on vacation where the people we pay are paid to tailor their services to our needs?

    The government can access that same info and combine it with my telephone and utilitiy records, e-mail history, property records, criminal record, driver's license and vehicle registration info, public school records, social security and tax records. Much of that information is accessible by anyone. (as seen by the targeted junk mail you get) Anyone with access to all that info can know more about me than my spouse.
    Again, why would your information be useful at all? You are probably not that interesting of an individual to begin with just as I. Do you think the government really cares, and if you do, why? I think many who have this fear may actually have some type of mental illness. Some may call it schizophrenia. There really is no argument that can be made to convince me that information about an every day person would be useful at all. Only people who believe they are either more important than they really are, or people who have a illogical fear of oversight, which many schizophrenics do, could believe their personal information is of any value.

    With nearly everyone in the system there is so much data that there is a very slight possibility that any one individual is going to be selected for deeper investigation. The technology required to make sense and practical use of all that raw date is still relatively primitive compared to its potential. That is why the supporters of a surveillance state reassure us that we are not likely to be targetted. However, all that information compiled on nearly everyone in the USA in a sophisticated database can find connections between people and organizations and detect all sorts of trends and tendencies.
    What use would this information be other than to track and detain criminals? And if it were being used in that way, I think it would be transparent enough to all of us via the media that we would act. I would be against the use of such technology in the way you mention above, but as of yet, there has been no evidence it has been used in that way on the scale people fear it will be. I don't know anyone who would not be against the use of this technology in anything other than tracking criminal activity. The very technology that would monitor us is also the technology that would expose it use as such. The same advances that would allow governments to track individuals also allows individuals to expose governments acting irresponsibly. So in the end it all washes.

    Read the news stories on how the Chinese government is using information on citizen's internet use. I don't think it is at all farfetched to say that our government has the ability to disrupt political movements such as Occupy or the Tea Party before they even get started. They can potentially use their massive information database in conjunction with old fashioned investigative work, political dirty tricks, Cointel type tactics and advertisng/marketing techniques to acheive virtually any type of political, social or marketing goal. If they can't do it right now, they will be able to do it in the near future.
    And as you rightly point out, it was reported thru the news. If the U.S. was a country like china where they censor the media and control information about itself, it would of course be troublesome. But in the U.S. that type of activity is quickly exposed because of the very technology that would allow anyone to know specifics about you.

    With that much power in the hands of government, democracy becomes a farce. Perhaps it is not being abused yet. But all it will take is one person with a high level of access and a malicious or misguided agenda for many lives to be ruined. Mistakes will be made. Technology and privileges will be abused. Power and money will corrupt government officals. Bad, mentally ill or misguided people will be in positions of power.
    This technology will be available either way. There is no way you are going to escape it. By condemning it outright, you will only drive it underground where we will ever know about it. I think the correct approach is to understand this new reality and embrace it in a way that forces it to become transparent.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    So what? What damage does this do to you?
    No direct damage is done, I was pointing out the power of this technology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    You are going to have to eventually accept that in a society where social technology is become more and more advanced and more a part of our society, this is going to become a reality. The only solution to this is to rid us of the internet and social networking on the internet. And I think you will be hard pressed to do this.
    I willingly trade off convenience and entertainment for some privacy, but I have limits on the amount and type of information I am willing to provide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    I think the only solution to someone like you is to completely disconnect, buy a cabin in the woods and hunt for your own food.
    See my post #157 for a discussion on some alternatives.
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1062145056

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    Again, why would your information be useful at all? ......I think many who have this fear may actually have some type of mental illness. ....Only people who believe they are either more important than they really are, or people who have a illogical fear of oversight, which many schizophrenics do, could believe their personal information is of any value......What use would this information be other than to track and detain criminals?
    Anyone with a bit of money and/or power is of potential interest to others. People may want to influence you, destroy you, use your credit card, blackmail you and empty your bank account. I am not saying the government wants to do that, but some individuals do, and a few could get jobs with access to this data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    And if it were being used in that way, I think it would be transparent enough to all of us via the media that we would act.
    It usually takes years of hard work to expose governmental abuses such as COINTELPRO. The new technology makes it far easier for elements in the government to misuse its information resources and easier to hide it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    I would be against the use of such technology in the way you mention above, but as of yet, there has been no evidence it has been used in that way on the scale people fear it will be.
    Using this technology to locate and execute U.S.A. citizens without a bothering with a trial and conviction is a pretty big abuse in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    I don't know anyone who would not be against the use of this technology in anything other than tracking criminal activity.
    There is a lot temptation for the people who can access this information technology to use it for financial or political gain, career advantages or revenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    The very technology that would monitor us is also the technology that would expose it use as such. The same advances that would allow governments to track individuals also allows individuals to expose governments acting irresponsibly. So in the end it all washes.

    If the U.S. was a country like china where they censor the media and control information about itself, it would of course be troublesome. But in the U.S. that type of activity is quickly exposed because of the very technology that would allow anyone to know specifics about you.
    Perhaps, but those who own or control this technology can always take it away or change it when they need to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    This technology will be available either way. There is no way you are going to escape it. By condemning it outright, you will only drive it underground where we will ever know about it. I think the correct approach is to understand this new reality and embrace it in a way that forces it to become transparent.
    See my post #157 for a discussion on some alternatives.
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1062145056
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 08-04-13 at 08:03 PM.

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhat View Post
    Call your congressmen and find out.
    And find out what? That they aren't representing their constituents properly? I already know that, so why call?

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    Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Jango View Post
    And find out what? That they aren't representing their constituents properly? I already know that, so why call?
    Well if you're not happy with them, vote for the other guy. Although you may find that they won't be too different in practice; that's because it's all ideologically great until your face with the reality of the world.

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    Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post

    Using this technology to locate and execute U.S.A. citizens without a bothering with a trial and conviction is a pretty big abuse in my opinion.
    That's some conspiracy theory you got there..

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Originally Posted by Hard Truth "Using this technology to locate and execute U.S.A. citizens without a bothering with a trial and conviction is a pretty big abuse in my opinion."


    Quote Originally Posted by greyhat View Post
    That's some conspiracy theory you got there..

    Who were the 4 U.S. citizens killed in drone strikes?By Jere Van Dyk /
    CBS News/ May 22, 2013, 7:40 PM

    On Wednesday, the Obama administration publicly acknowledged for the first time that four Americans were killed in drone strikes since 2009 as part of U.S. counterterrorism activities surrounding al Qaeda . Of the four, only one of them, Anwar al-Awlaki, was targeted, according to Attorney General Eric Holder in a letter to Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy. The following are descriptions of the four men killed in drone operations.


    Anwar al-Awlaki


    Anwar al-Awlaki was an articulate, charismatic Muslim orator and jihadist. He was born in Las Cruces, New Mexico in 1971; he died on Sept. 11, 2011 at age 40. He was called by some "the emir of the Internet" because of his abilities as an orator -- often seen with his hand raised, his finger pointing, his long, thin black beard, sitting-crossed legged behind a podium, preaching, lecturing and calling for jihad against America. His parents were born in Yemen. His father, Nasser, al-Awlaki, came to the U.S. as a Fulbright scholar and studied agriculture economics at Mexico State University, and later received a Ph.D. from the University of Nebraska.


    Anwar Al-Awlaki received a B.S. degree in civil engineering from Colorado State in 1994. He reportedly spent one summer while a student living in Afghanistan with the Mujahideen -- former American allies in the Afghan-Soviet War who later became corrupt and gave rise to the Taliban. Al Qaeda was in Afghanistan at that time and al-Awlaki, with his command of Arabic and English, might have become radicalized then.

    When he was killed, on Sept. 30, 2011, in Yemen, it was the first known time that a U.S.-controlled drone strike deliberately targeted and killed an American citizen. Obama called it a "major blow to al Qaeda's most active operational affiliate." But many condemned this extra-judicial killing.


    Al-Awlaki said that he felt close to Sayyid Qutb, the Egyptian-born writer, and intellectual force of the Muslim Brotherhood. Osama bin Laden was also influenced by Qutb.

    Al-Awlaki said that he taught and trained Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, the Nigerian-born "underwear bomber, who was going to bomb Northwest Airlines Flight #523 on Dec. 25, 2009. But he said that he did not order the attack.


    Samir Khan

    Also killed in the same drone attack that claimed Al-Awlaki was Samir Khan, a U.S. citizen of Pakistani heritage. Khan was born in Saudi Arabia in 1986 and grew up in Queens, New York, in a typical middle-class family. His parents are said to have become worried that as a teenager he was becoming too religious. His family moved to North Carolina and he lived with them until at least 2007. It was during this time, U.S. officials say, that Khan began to help violent jihadist groups online, using his skills on the Web. He seemed to be operating on his own and didn't appear to be tied to any terrorist group.

    In 2009, Khan left home for Yemen and became a part of al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. It was here, again using his computer and literary skills, that Khan started "Inspire," the influential online jihadist magazine. Khan was killed in the same air strike that killed Anwar al-Awlaki.

    "I am proud to be a traitor," he told ABC News in 2010.



    Jude Kenan Mohammad

    According to the Justice Department, Jude Kenan Mohammad was killed by a U.S. drone in Pakistan. He was a U.S. citizen and former resident of North Carolina. He was born in Florida of a Pakistani father. He went to high school in North Carolina, dropped out in 2006, but later received a GED. In 2008, he left the U.S. to visit his father, who had moved back to Pakistan. He later disappeared into the tribal areas of Pakistan, along the Afghanistan border. There he was trained, most probably by al Qaeda.

    In 2009, a North Carolina jury indicted him and others on conspiracy charges to commit terrorism. As an American citizen, with a U.S. passport and American accent, he was the type of person U.S. authorities feared -- and al Qaeda sought -- to wage jihad in America.


    Anwar al-Awlaki and his Egyptian-born wife, Gihan Mohsen Baker, had an American son, born on Sept. 13, 1995, in Denver, while al-Awlaki was a student at Colorado State. His son's name Abdulrahman Anwar al-Awlaki. He was killed at age 16 in a drone strike on Oct. 14, 2011, in Yemen. It, too, was a controversial extra-judicial killing. Some U.S. officials called it a mistake. Even the president is said, in some reports, to have considered it a bad mistake.

    It is not clear where the young al-Awlaki was when he was killed. Some reports say that he was in a cafe with friends; other reports that he was sitting by the road eating with friends. His family said that he had run away from home and was trying to find his father. He had no known ties to terrorism.

    Former White House press secretary Robert Gibbs, stated that his death was justified, and that he "should have had a more responsible father."
    Who were the 4 U.S. citizens killed in drone strikes? - CBS News

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhat View Post
    Well if you're not happy with them, vote for the other guy. Although you may find that they won't be too different in practice; that's because it's all ideologically great until your face with the reality of the world.
    I'm all too aware of the reality of the world, however, bulk collection of data and information on American citizens does not fit in with that paradigm. It's unconstitutional, first of all, and if the defenders of the programs are truly correct: unnecessary, for if the IC is unable to sift through the material it gorges itself on… then WTF is the point?

    And you seriously can't be naive enough to suggest that voting is the solution when lawmakers are but only a fraction of the problem. The overwhelming majority of the problem is the IC and the resources they dispense into the accounts of the lawmakers. The IC wants these programs because they get to have bigger budgets. It's why they defend their unconstitutional practices in the face of public outcries. They say, relatively, the same God damn thing every time they get caught doing something illegal, immoral and unconstitutional. The lawmakers buy it every time too because their support is already paid for in advance. It's institutional deceit and fraud perpetrated by the IC and select lawmakers which is then condoned by naive and idealistic Americans… including yourself.

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Jango View Post
    And find out what? That they aren't representing their constituents properly? I already know that, so why call?
    Why you assume that? Why do you think that just because you think something, everyone else shares that viewpoint and/or it must be objectively true?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Originally Posted by Hard Truth "Using this technology to locate and execute U.S.A. citizens without a bothering with a trial and conviction is a pretty big abuse in my opinion."





    Who were the 4 U.S. citizens killed in drone strikes?By Jere Van Dyk /
    CBS News/ May 22, 2013, 7:40 PM

    On Wednesday, the Obama administration publicly acknowledged for the first time that four Americans were killed in drone strikes since 2009 as part of U.S. counterterrorism activities surrounding al Qaeda .

    Don't be an enemy combatant and you won't get turned into pink dust by a drone!

    I'd personally press the "fire button" and blow up any Joe Schmo that takes arms against the USA.
    Last edited by greyhat; 08-04-13 at 08:38 PM.

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhat View Post
    Don't be an enemy combatant and you won't get turned into pink dust by a drone!

    I'd personally press the "fire button" and blow up any Joe Schmo that takes arms against the USA.
    lol, the people that have talked about revolution because their particular reading of the constitution (they hate when I don't capitalize it) hasn't been supported are real quiet about that.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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