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Thread: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhat View Post
    You know very little about US intel apparatus; get a clue first, then you can post something intelligent.

    I appreciate your sincere and generous attempt to help me improve myself. You're a nice person.
    ...for perhaps the most admirable among the admirable laws of Nature is the survival of the weakest.
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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Strucker View Post
    Yes, especially considering what this discussion is about.

    both the Democrats and Republicans, aside from a few outliers, support the domestic spying program.

    Perhaps the Greens and Libertarians do not....but they don't tend to hold Federal Office.
    That is correct. Representatives from the broadest possible political swathe of the electorate have all signed off on this program, as have all three branches of government. You wanted checks, balances, separation of powers? It's all there. Feel free to try to figure out a system that would do better.

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is correct. Representatives from the broadest possible political swathe of the electorate have all signed off on this program, as have all three branches of government. You wanted checks, balances, separation of powers? It's all there. Feel free to try to figure out a system that would do better.
    I think the system is very good. I think the historical record will bear this out.

    But part of the system's very excellence depends on people complaining and debating about it...and trying to hold the representatives to account. Periodic voting is only part of it.

    It's a crucial component of the democratic principle.

    So ok, that's just what I'm doing, and what you're doing too, in responding.

    Except that my remarks don't have an implied "stop complaining" remonstrance underlying them...a short step up from "love it or leave it!"
    ...for perhaps the most admirable among the admirable laws of Nature is the survival of the weakest.
    --Vladimir Nabokov

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Strucker View Post
    I think the system is very good. I think the historical record will bear this out.

    But part of the system's very excellence depends on people complaining and debating about it...and trying to hold the representatives to account. Periodic voting is only part of it.

    It's a crucial component of the democratic principle.

    So ok, that's just what I'm doing, and what you're doing too, in responding.

    Except that my remarks don't have an implied "stop complaining" remonstrance underlying them...a short step up from "love it or leave it!"
    I think we are talking past each other just a tic - I am referring explicitly to the system that produced this program, not the U.S. as a whole. You aren't going to get much better for a covert program than to require explicit Congressional authorization to be exercised with Executive Oversight subject to Judicial Review in such a situation wherein the major leaders of both national parties have to be party to the decision.

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Their constituents.
    So you're saying Americans want to be spied on?

    And you didn't answer one of my questions: Do you want our government spying on you?

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Americans.
    So U.S. citizens want to be spied on by their government?

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    Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Jango View Post
    So you're saying Americans want to be spied on?

    And you didn't answer one of my questions: Do you want our government spying on you?
    Americans want security and thru their government have voted for it; all these programs, whether YOU like them or not, are legal.

    And who said they're spying on you? Is it really that hard to absorb that these are foreign targeted programs? The military has a lot of guns, that doesn't mean they're pointing them at YOU...

    Your fear is of abuse and no doubt they could occur but this is why there are oversight programs and protocol.

    Nothing is 100% proof; intel collection is messy but no doubt within the context of a dangerous world needed. We don't live in an ideological neighborhood where everyone respects each other, rather we live in a nasty dangerous world- wake up!
    Last edited by greyhat; 08-04-13 at 01:28 PM.

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Jango View Post
    So U.S. citizens want to be spied on by their government?
    The people they voted into office did. That's the way this system of governance works. If you don't like this system, you can try to change it or move.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I think we are talking past each other just a tic - I am referring explicitly to the system that produced this program, not the U.S. as a whole. You aren't going to get much better for a covert program than to require explicit Congressional authorization to be exercised with Executive Oversight subject to Judicial Review in such a situation wherein the major leaders of both national parties have to be party to the decision.
    Well, when it comes to secrets and power, I believe the two parties (and, to a little lesser degree, the different branches) are essentially "two buttocks on the same fat gentleman," to slightly mangle the metaphor.

    Heck, for 25 years, both parties, as well as multiple parties in several other nations, up to and including Ambassadors and various government and military officials, tried very hard (and with some limited success) to keep secret the full extent of material, intentional Western support for mass murder in East Timor by their pseudo-fascist ally, Indonesia's Suharto.

    So sometimes the "representatives" are precisely on the same page, in unjustifiable behaviors that would make most of their constituents go pale.
    ...for perhaps the most admirable among the admirable laws of Nature is the survival of the weakest.
    --Vladimir Nabokov

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    Re: Greenwald says 'low-level' NSA workers can tap into phone, Internet records

    Quote Originally Posted by Jango View Post
    So U.S. citizens want to be spied on by their government?
    What's funny (sad) is that the answer is yes, for a portion of the sample group U.S. citizens.

    Some folks prefer the regimented life and like to be told what to do. I wonder if it is a conscious decision? The herd mentality at its strongest.

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