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Jail break at Abu Ghraib

You cannot ignore the claim that 10 years and trillions of dollars came to nothing because of the jail break.
You keep ignoring the context of the original statement. You want to ignore the original statement and turn it into your statement.

You do this all the time.
 
You keep ignoring the context of the original statement. You want to ignore the original statement and turn it into your statement.

The statement was simple: 10 years and trillions of dollars (supposedly) spent on tackling terrorism came to nothing.

You do this all the time.

Save the personal attacks for someone who gives a crap.
 
You cannot ignore the claim that 10 years and trillions of dollars came to nothing because of the jail break.

But, factor in the suicide bombings still going on, and the civil unrest that still prevails in t hat unfortunate country, and one has to wonder just what was accomplished in 10 years, thousands of US soldiers killed, hundreds of billions spent.
 
But, factor in the suicide bombings still going on, and the civil unrest that still prevails in t hat unfortunate country, and one has to wonder just what was accomplished in 10 years, thousands of US soldiers killed, hundreds of billions spent.

No more:

1. Fake WMD program
2. Genocide
3. Intentional starvation of hundreds of thousands of children
3. Institutionalized rape
4. Government sanctioned and wide spread torture of political opponents
5. Dictatorship
6. Invading neighbors
7. Firing on UN mandated aircraft enforcing a no-fly to prevent genocide
8. Violations of UNSCRs
9. Sanctions
10. Annihilation of social capital

And now, instead:

1. Fledgling democracy
2. Human rights, at least in law if not thoroughly enforced yet
3. Foreign aid
4. UN development projects
5. Other development projects
6. Foreign business contracts
7. A future


There are many other things that were put to an end, and many other things that have changed for the positive, but I think that illustrates some of the big and obvious stuff.
 
No more:

1. Fake WMD program
2. Genocide
3. Intentional starvation of hundreds of thousands of children
3. Institutionalized rape
4. Government sanctioned and wide spread torture of political opponents
5. Dictatorship
6. Invading neighbors
7. Firing on UN mandated aircraft enforcing a no-fly to prevent genocide
8. Violations of UNSCRs
9. Sanctions
10. Annihilation of social capital

And now, instead:

1. Fledgling democracy
2. Human rights, at least in law if not thoroughly enforced yet
3. Foreign aid
4. UN development projects
5. Other development projects
6. Foreign business contracts
7. A future


There are many other things that were put to an end, and many other things that have changed for the positive, but I think that illustrates some of the big and obvious stuff.

There is no more fake WMD program. As for the rest of it, I suppose we'll see in the next few years. Meanwhile, when AlQaeda can carry out the sorts of operations within Iraq that they are doing, it does lead one to wonder just who ultimately won that war.
 
There is no more fake WMD program. As for the rest of it, I suppose we'll see in the next few years.

What do you mean?. An end was put to everything on that list and the new stuff is happening right now. It's up to Iraqis to stand up, they are empowered. Under Saddam, they had no chance.
 
What do you mean?. An end was put to everything on that list and the new stuff is happening right now. It's up to Iraqis to stand up, they are empowered. Under Saddam, they had no chance.

What sort of "new stuff" is happening?
Suicide bombings?
How about Al Qaeda operating within Iraq? That is new stuff, as it wasn't happening before the invasion.
 
What sort of "new stuff" is happening?

1. Fledgling democracy
2. Human rights, at least in law if not thoroughly enforced yet
3. Foreign aid
4. UN development projects
5. Other development projects
6. Foreign business contracts
7. A future

Suicide bombings?

That's better than genocide. Saddam killed millions of Iraqis in aggressive war, genocide and starvation. When the suicide bombers have killed over a million, let me know.

How about Al Qaeda operating within Iraq? That is new stuff, as it wasn't happening before the invasion.

That because Saddam killed everyone that didn't do what he said. An open society comes with criminals. Those criminals must be dealt with in a civilized manner and not through wiping out entire villages to create fear.

We have terrorists in the US. Terrorists are everywhere in the world. That will never change. The important thing is that Iraq becomes a developing nation instead of a genocidal hellhole of darkness.
 
1. Fledgling democracy
2. Human rights, at least in law if not thoroughly enforced yet
3. Foreign aid
4. UN development projects
5. Other development projects
6. Foreign business contracts
7. A future



That's better than genocide. Saddam killed millions of Iraqis in aggressive war, genocide and starvation. When the suicide bombers have killed over a million, let me know.



That because Saddam killed everyone that didn't do what he said. An open society comes with criminals. Those criminals must be dealt with in a civilized manner and not through wiping out entire villages to create fear.

We have terrorists in the US. Terrorists are everywhere in the world. That will never change. The important thing is that Iraq becomes a developing nation instead of a genocidal hellhole of darkness.

and whether it will or not remains to be seen.
 
Imho, the real questions that we should be asking aren't about Iraq--they're about the US.

We went from having Iraq be a country that was not likely to attack us (according to our best estimates at the time) and now we have an Iraq that doesn't seem likely to attack us.
Not sure that we got bargain for our costs.



Apparently, 500,000 Iraqis have been forced to flee their home for fear of violence. So it's not an improvement if you're an Iraqi Christian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Iraq#Post-war_situation



It means that the time and money came to nothing. If the time and money came to nothing, there can be no other objective.
It means that the time and money [devoted to fighting terrorism] came to nothing. If the time and money [devoted to fighting terrorism] came to nothing, there can be no other objective.
 
and whether it will or not remains to be seen.

Well, we cannot guarantee anyone prosperity and development (we've enough problems with it ourselves). But we can end genocidal dictators. Saddam had destroyed all the social capital in Iraq. Not a free critical thinker remained. When we kicked Baath out, no one was left in the room. It will take a generation to regrow that social capital. After that, I expect Iraq will develop like an Asian Tiger and become a great nation once again. I look forward to the people of Iraq joining us in the 21st century and contributing to our mutual goals and future.

We see things happening now in Iraq (listed above) that would have been impossible under Saddam.
 
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Well, we cannot guarantee anyone prosperity and development (we've enough problems with it ourselves). But we can end genocidal dictators. Saddam had destroyed all the social capital in Iraq. Not a free critical thinker remained. When we kicked Baath out, no one was left in the room. It will take a generation to regrow that social capital. After that, I expect that Iraq will develop like an Asian Tiger and become a great nation once again. I look forward to the people of Iraq joining us in the 21st century and contributing to our mutual goals and future.

We see things happening now in Iraq (listed above) that would have been impossible under Saddam.

and no doubt the thousands of Iraqis who fled the violence will return if that happens.

The other thousands now in their graves, however, won't.
 
and no doubt the thousands of Iraqis who fled the violence will return if that happens.

The other thousands now in their graves, however, won't.

Saddam killed more Iraqis per year than the coalition has. If he had been left in power, more would be dead.
 
Saddam killed more Iraqis per year than the coalition has. If he had been left in power, more would be dead.

The second part of that statement is speculation. You might find it difficult to back up the first part.
 
Saddam had destroyed all the social capital in Iraq.
How are you using the phrase "social capital"? What does it mean in this context?

Look, how about you let RDS answer his own questions. And if he doesn't, then we know his position is full of crap.
I will forthwith stop preventing RDS from replying.
Only the very last of the post you quoted had anything to do w/ RDS.
 
The second part of that statement is speculation. You might find it difficult to back up the first part.

Statistics. We can take Saddam's slaughter over his last 20 years, 10 years or 5 years and he averages more kills per year than the coalition (and that's only counting the big stuff).
 
How are you using the phrase "social capital"? What does it mean in this context?

The existence of educated, free thinking, critical analysis members of society (working together towards development). Anyone like that was killed by Saddam, or forced (through the removal of fingers in many cases) to fall in line and they were utterly debased.

When it comes to intellectuals, Iraq is a barren landscape. But it will regrow.
 
Statistics. We can take Saddam's slaughter over his last 20 years, 10 years or 5 years and he averages more kills per year than the coalition (and that's only counting the big stuff).
okay, for fun, let's do it.

What number do you have for the entirety of SH's reign?
When do start counting SH's reign?

The existence of educated, free thinking, critical analysis members of society (working together towards development). Anyone like that was killed by Saddam, or forced (through the removal of fingers in many cases) to fall in line and they were utterly debased.
When it comes to intellectuals, Iraq is a barren landscape. But it will regrow.
So you have decided not to count the recent mass exodus from Iraq? It seems if you were counting that, you have to say that the depletion of "social capital" was still ongoing.
 
No, instead we spent hundreds of billions of dollars and killed off a few thousand soldiers helping it happen.

With Syria I find it plausible that the majority Islamist elements take control. Since we invaded Iraq we managed to put the quasi-liberal elements in power, give the Kurds greater autonomy and security, and keep ethnic strife to a minimum.
 
With Syria I find it plausible that the majority Islamist elements take control. Since we invaded Iraq we managed to put the quasi-liberal elements in power, give the Kurds greater autonomy and security, and keep ethnic strife to a minimum.
The hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing Iraq should also get some credit for helping to prevent ethnic violence.
If they hadn't fled in fear for their lives, the violence would likely have been greater.
We should also thank those who frightened the refugees enough to flee their homeland. They too played a part in "keep ethnic strife to a minimum" by sending people packing instead of letting them stay to become victims of violence.
 
The hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing Iraq should also get some credit for helping to prevent ethnic violence.
If they hadn't fled in fear for their lives, the violence would likely have been greater.
We should also thank those who frightened the refugees enough to flee their homeland. They too played a part in "keep ethnic strife to a minimum" by sending people packing instead of letting them stay to become victims of violence.

Your point?
 
Of course there is:



That's an absolute (bold) based on the premise (underlined). Would you like a link to an English class?
English class? English is not my native language but I can speak and write impeccable English - better than most americans.
 
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