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Thread: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

  1. #161
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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's not an incorrect statement. If the People do not resolve themselves to fight and keep freedom, you can never bring them freedom. Any gain will be but temporary and without the outside pressure, the full of it would fall apart. Freedom requires the hearts and minds of the People. It cannot be delivered, it cannot be bought, it cannot be gifted. It must be earned by those whom wish to wield it, and they must resolve themselves to keep it.
    That is much closer to the truth, though, still a little off and demands totally different policies than the earlier statement. What it means, you see, is that outsiders can bring the possibility of freedom and can do things to help. In the one case it would be stupid to intervene. In the other in can make sense and every situation has to be dealt with on its own merits.

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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    That is much closer to the truth, though, still a little off and demands totally different policies than the earlier statement. What it means, you see, is that outsiders can bring the possibility of freedom and can do things to help. In the one case it would be stupid to intervene. In the other in can make sense and every situation has to be dealt with on its own merits.
    It cannot be brought with foreigners with guns. Foreigners with guns may be able to help a united and resolved People; but there is two fold problem. First it takes the united and resolved People, without that there is no hope. The other is that foreigners with guns have no proper right or say in the affairs and governments of others. Government derives its legitimacy through the consent of the governed. If you are not part of the governed, you have no proper say.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #163
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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    Actually, Iraq was the first domino of freedom and democracy.
    So you say.
    post hoc ergo propter hoc
    It takes more than one thing occurring after another to decide that the first thing caused the second.

    It's quite possible that the invasion of Iraq slowed down the Arab Spring
    I may be wrong.

  4. #164
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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    So you say.
    post hoc ergo propter hoc
    It takes more than one thing occurring after another to decide that the first thing caused the second.

    It's quite possible that the invasion of Iraq slowed down the Arab Spring
    There was little to no such thought as an arab spring until after the US committed itself to the region. The imagery of Iraqi's going to polls and actively engaging in the fate of their country I think put hope in many middle eastern countries citizens that if they rose up that they would receive aid from the international community. And with the help of social media to spur on international support, they finally had the courage to rise up. I don't think that would have occurred if we had not gotten involved in Iraq.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    There was little to no such thought as an arab spring until after the US committed itself to the region.
    Just after WWII and during the cold war. Yes Arab Spring came after the US decided to "commit itself" to the region.

    I also came after the formulation of Germ Theory and after the invention of the automobile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    The imagery of Iraqi's going to polls and actively engaging in the fate of their country I think put hope in many middle eastern countries citizens that if they rose up that they would receive aid from the international community. ... I don't think that would have occurred if we had not gotten involved in Iraq.
    You're welcome to believe that.
    Did you decide to believe that based on reliable data which reflect the opinions of people living in the Arab World who participated in the Arab Spring?
    Or merely based on an anecdote?
    Or just because of "common sense"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    And with the help of social media...
    The role of social media has been well documented. It allowed people to coordinate, motivate, and demonstrate in ways which they could not previously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    ...they finally had the courage to rise up.
    The Arab World lacked courage previously?
    I may be wrong.

  6. #166
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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Just after WWII and during the cold war. Yes Arab Spring came after the US decided to "commit itself" to the region.

    I also came after the formulation of Germ Theory and after the invention of the automobile.

    You're welcome to believe that.
    I do believe that. I believe that all humans want to live in a society where they are not in fear of expressing their true selves. Unless you believe that only americans have the ability to do this, then you have to agree that everyone has the ability and want to do this. The Middle East has historically been a place where you could not express your views openly unless they conformed to the strict religious / political ideologies of those in power. It was not until recently that the idea that it could be possible to change this has crawled into the minds of people in the middle east. Once it takes root, there is no way it can be stopped. The governments in the middle east have done such a good job subjugating its people in strict religious doctorine and fear that they have not been able to even think about the idea of expressing themselves. Once America and it's allies came to the ME it brought hope that it may be possible to attain the freedom that americans have enjoyed. When I say, enjoy freedom that americans have enjoyed, I dont mean it strictly in an american sense. I would not want to see an americanized middle east. What I mean by freedom, is a middle eastern type of freedom that fits and progresses without destroying their culture.

    Did you decide to believe that based on reliable data which reflect the opinions of people living in the Arab World who participated in the Arab Spring?
    Based on observation..

    The Arab World lacked courage previously?
    Yes. If you look around the ME the status quo seemed to be one of religious rigidity. Where as now, we are beginning to see more a sense that secularism and democracy are at least becoming more favorable than ever before in the history of the middle east.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    Based on observation..
    Can you share the data you have observed?
    I may be wrong.

  8. #168
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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Had Saddam turned into an angel?
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

  9. #169
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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It cannot be brought with foreigners with guns. Foreigners with guns may be able to help a united and resolved People; but there is two fold problem. First it takes the united and resolved People, without that there is no hope. The other is that foreigners with guns have no proper right or say in the affairs and governments of others. Government derives its legitimacy through the consent of the governed. If you are not part of the governed, you have no proper say.
    So Germany, Japan, and the United States were never freed? They never could have developed democracies as we know them today without "foreigners with guns."
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

  10. #170
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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    So Germany and Japan were never freed?
    The demographics and culture of Germany and Japan are a bit different from modern day Iraq, but if we ignore the apples to oranges comparison Germany and Japan were conquered.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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