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Thread: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

  1. #151
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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by RDS View Post
    English class? English is not my native language but I can speak and write impeccable English - better than most americans.
    Americans

  2. #152
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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Your point?
    That the "minimum" of ethnic strife involves hundreds of thousands of people fleeing for their lives.
    I may be wrong.

  3. #153
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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    That the "minimum" of ethnic strife involves hundreds of thousands of people fleeing for their lives.
    You're connecting two loosely related things and implying that one caused the other. There were Syrian refugees before we decided to get involved. Do you think that the Iraqi refugees were fleeing from the evil tentacles of American imperialism, or from the inevitable civil war that had only a marginal relationship with the US invasion of Iraq?
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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  4. #154
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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    You're connecting two loosely related things and implying that one caused the other.
    You said that we had kept ethnic strife in Iraq to a minimum.
    I pointed out that the "minimum" involved at least hundreds of thousands of people fleeing for their lives.
    What causation are you talking about?
    I may be wrong.

  5. #155
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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    You said that we had kept ethnic strife in Iraq to a minimum.
    I pointed out that the "minimum" involved at least hundreds of thousands of people fleeing for their lives.
    What causation are you talking about?
    The "causation" is that our invasion is what motivated a mass exodus from Iraq, not the subsequent civil war. The minimum doesn't involve anyone fleeing from anything, the invasion and the refugees are only loosely related.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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  6. #156
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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    The "causation" is that our invasion is what motivated a mass exodus from Iraq, not the subsequent civil war. The minimum doesn't involve anyone fleeing from anything, the invasion and the refugees are only loosely related.
    Was the civil war another example of the "minimum" ethnic strife?
    I may be wrong.

  7. #157
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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Was the civil war another example of the "minimum" ethnic strife?
    That was my point. The ethnic strife in Syria is far greater than it was in post-invasion Iraq. It likely would have been a lot worse without our intervention.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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  8. #158
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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Freedom cannot be brought by foreigners with a gun.
    I think that is an incorrect statement in that generality and has amply bin falsified. But people here and abroad like it, because it seems to justify their irresposibility and/or cowardice.

  9. #159
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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Yes, we did.
    Not me personally.

    But, I think that the vast majority of people who were telling me about Iraq being the "first domino" of freedom and democracy in the Arab world held their beliefs with sincerity. I suspect that some non-insignificant number of them have feelings consternation about the state of affairs in Iraq today.
    Actually, Iraq was the first domino of freedom and democracy. If you look at the middle east prior to the invasion of Iraq and then look at it today, you have to agree there have been some remarkable changes. Saying this however, has to come with a degree of caution because the reality is that there are still groups in the middle east that want to drag the entire region back to the 14th century. I don't think any military action will ever totally irradicate that, but it can at least wrestle power from a group that has a stranglehold on an entire country and force it to only be a thorn in its side.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I think that is an incorrect statement in that generality and has amply bin falsified. But people here and abroad like it, because it seems to justify their irresposibility and/or cowardice.
    It's not an incorrect statement. If the People do not resolve themselves to fight and keep freedom, you can never bring them freedom. Any gain will be but temporary and without the outside pressure, the full of it would fall apart. Freedom requires the hearts and minds of the People. It cannot be delivered, it cannot be bought, it cannot be gifted. It must be earned by those whom wish to wield it, and they must resolve themselves to keep it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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