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Thread: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Yes, I'm not a right winger. Also, you should have ended your sentence with a question mark.




    I'll ask you again. Do you think that if Saddam fell without US involvement, Iraq wouldn't have degraded into sectarianism and civil war?
    This thread is about the breakout at Abu Ghraib, not grammar or your speculative nonsense
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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    This thread is about the breakout at Abu Ghraib, not grammar or your speculative nonsense
    It also wasn't about "right-wing predictions" that turned out to be "epic FAILs." Whoop-dee-do.
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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Now can anyone actually give an honest, direct response to this question:

    Do you think that if Saddam fell without US involvement, Iraq wouldn't have degraded into sectarianism and civil war?
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Now can anyone actually give an honest, direct response to this question:
    Do you think that if Saddam fell without US involvement, Iraq wouldn't have degraded into sectarianism and civil war?
    An honest answer is that we will never know. There are examples in history of all sorts of things. Egypt is not experiencing the same level of chaos and disaster that Iraq has gone through. Maybe Iraq would have been like Egypt. Maybe Iraq would have been like Libya, which has also managed to avoid a decade of destruction violence. Maybe Iraq would have been like Syria--full of bloodshed with no end in sight.

    Until I see the official calibration results of your crystal ball, I am willing to believe that you have mostly just your bias to guide your assertion.
    But barring the calibration results of your crystal ball, you could make an attempt to gather and present relevant data to bolster your case.

    So far, though, all you have done is make assertion backed by rhetorical questions. Which, imho, isn't a convincing argument--not really an argument at all afaict. Ymmv.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    An honest answer is that we will never know. There are examples in history of all sorts of things. Egypt is not experiencing the same level of chaos and disaster that Iraq has gone through. Maybe Iraq would have been like Egypt. Maybe Iraq would have been like Libya, which has also managed to avoid a decade of destruction violence. Maybe Iraq would have been like Syria--full of bloodshed with no end in sight.

    Until I see the official calibration results of your crystal ball, I am willing to believe that you have mostly just your bias to guide your assertion.
    But barring the calibration results of your crystal ball, you could make an attempt to gather and present relevant data to bolster your case.

    So far, though, all you have done is make assertion backed by rhetorical questions. Which, imho, isn't a convincing argument--not really an argument at all afaict. Ymmv.
    Judging by the context, it probably would have ended up more like Syria. Like Syria, a member of a minority religion ruled autocratically over the majority. Saddam managed to brutalize his population into submission in a way that Assad never could, but it would only be a matter of time before he died or before Iraq's Shia majority grew unrestful - the Arab Spring would be a good catalyst for the latter. One would hope for a recurrence of what happened in Egypt or even in Libya, but Saddam and Assad were/are much more tyrannical than Mubarak, and the sectarian issues that plague Iraq and Syria do not exist in Libya.

    Once that point in time came, we'd likely see another Syrian civil war: Saddam's regime or what's left of it (under his son Uday?) would be fighting a rebel movement that would probably have a mix of Western-esque liberals and Shia Islamists, supported by Iran. The Baathists would probably be aligned with Sunni jihadists judging by what happened in Iraq, although it wouldn't be impossible for al-Qaeda affiliates to present a separate faction. The Kurds, like in Syria, would place their safety and autonomy above everything else, and so would be independent of the other belligerents.

    Really, the only differences between Iraq and Syria are that the majority vs. ruling religions have been switched, and that Saddam had a greater stranglehold over Iraq than Assad has over Syria. However, since we invaded we were able to separate Shia Islamism from the liberal elements, and marginalize the former. We also managed to put the Kurds on the side of the liberal government, although this relationship is strenuous at times.

    I just don't really believe that we were the magical ingredient that made everything in Iraq turned to ****, and that if we didn't intervene then everything would be fine and dandy once Saddam fell.
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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Hah. Yeah. The basic problem with us vis-a-vis the Middle East is that activity creates problems (e.g. the recent wars, CIA activity in the 70s, etc), but inactivity may not be all that useful either. It's a **** situation, all around.



    We're damned if we do damned if we don't.

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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    With the jail break can I say the 10 years and trillions spent on wars to tackle terrorism came to noughts?

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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Now can anyone actually give an honest, direct response to this question:

    Do you think that if Saddam fell without US involvement, Iraq wouldn't have degraded into sectarianism and civil war?
    I think a majority of the Kurds and Shiites would be murdered. Even though the Sunnis are small, they have the money and power.
    We went from sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me to safe spaces.

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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by RDS View Post
    With the jail break can I say the 10 years and trillions spent on wars to tackle terrorism came to noughts?
    When we lost our commitment we lost the war.

    We should have left in 2004 and I feel we would have the same results that we have today.
    We went from sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me to safe spaces.

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    Re: Jail break at Abu Ghraib

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Now can anyone actually give an honest, direct response to this question:

    Do you think that if Saddam fell without US involvement, Iraq wouldn't have degraded into sectarianism and civil war?
    Probably not. Despite his obvious flaws, Saddam governed in a style they seemed to like. At least he kept the electricity and water running.

    The US has a long established history of interfering in the business of other countries, and thereby causing mayhem and violence. Looks like we're going to do it again in Syria.

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