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Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

Detroit has had a Democrat in the Mayor's office since January 2, 1962. That's 51 years! Your 2 points are also gross misrepresentations. Detroit has suffered from corruption and financial mismanagement for decades. They put all of their eggs in one basket with the auto industry and they lacked any vision what so ever once it became clear that the auto industry could not carry their water. Bringing up two republican governors from more than half a century ago is just plain hackery... and really, REALLY stupid hackery at that.

By all means, find me an expert who agrees that the problem is not principally economic and racial.

Do it.

You wanna know what hackery is Jack. Its people who express the nonsense that you just did. Than and your denial of reality. In your blind desire to attack the Democrats you ignore the fact that the slide began with 2 republicans and then continued with the democrats. In point of fact, the problem is economic and racial and politicians of both stripes contributed to it, messed it up a bit, and sure did not help or reverse it.

But the worst sort of stupid hackery is the people who want to turn this into a hate the democratic party lynching when they conveniently ignore that 10% of the population was lost under two republican mayors and that was the BEGINNING of the slide.

So you just will NOT be allowed to have it both ways Jack. You will not.
 
The creditors you are referring to are the bond holders. Whenever a city needs money for a construction project or something, they sell bonds. These bonds are bought by many different sources, most of which wind up being part of someone's IRA or 401k. It is incredibly inaccurate and disingenuous to refer to this as "corporate interests". Without bond holders the city could not function because municipal bonds provide the exclusive means that the city has used to finance itself.
no, the creditors include every entity owed money by the city of detroit; from bond holders, to the office supply company which extends credit, to the current employees who are owed their wages, to the retirees who were promised a pension as part of the compensation for their labor

There is going to have to be shared sacrifice here.
and that is the point of the judge's ruling, based on the state constitution prohibiting any diminution of pension benefits
the upcoming financial haircut must fall on creditors other than pensioners in order to remain compliant with the state's constitution

I just read that Detroit has annual revenues of about $1.1 billion and has been running a $300+ million dollar deficit and they're losing about $100 million in revenue every year due to population loss. Looks to me like their budget needs some drastic trimming.
sure does
i am guessing that is why the bankruptcy filing occurred; as a mechanism to reduce the city's indebtedness to a point that debt service requirements no longer exceed the city's ability to pay
and hopefully, the creditors other than pensioners will be required to take the upcoming haircut

This SHOULD be the starting point.
i think the decision to file chapter 9 bankruptcy was the starting point
 
By all means, find me an expert who agrees that the problem is not principally economic and racial.
Of course the problem is economic! Find me a bankruptcy that isn't.:lol: As far as racism... meh. Racism doesn't cause economic meltdowns like this. Corruption, mismanagement, and poor planning does.

You wanna know what hackery is Jack. Its people who express the nonsense that you just did. Than and your denial of reality. In your blind desire to attack the Democrats you ignore the fact that the slide began with 2 republicans and then continued with the democrats. In point of fact, the problem is economic and racial and politicians of both stripes contributed to it, messed it up a bit, and sure did not help or reverse it.
Show me where I attacked Democrats.

But the worst sort of stupid hackery is the people who want to turn this into a hate the democratic party lynching when they conveniently ignore that 10% of the population was lost under two republican mayors and that was the BEGINNING of the slide.
Again, show me where I attacked Democrats. You can't. I didn't. You're just way over sensitive here because this whole mess is reflecting poorly upon the leadership of Detroit... which happens to be Democrat.

So you just will NOT be allowed to have it both ways Jack. You will not.
I'll have it any way I want it and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. I'm not the one who checked out into Hacksterville here. That one's all you, buddy.
 
I can accept that source as long as we all remember that haymarket supports this quote from that same source too: Unions helped drive a stake in the auto industry. We all know this, some just hate admitting it, I think there is a recent thread about "the myth that unions hurt the auto industry". What's important is that Detroit faced nothing that to some degree many other cities have faced to one degree or another. They were hit hardest, but everyone understands that's because they were so heavily invested in one specific industry. All their eggs in one basket, of course that was high risk, and the severity of the collapse directly related to that ultra-high-risk investment in that one industry. When it declined, people understandably left. Maybe you should have put in the constitution that the white taxpayers were forbidden to leave, or they still have to pay Detroit taxes once they move....I mean, why stop with insane, just go for bat-****-crazy?

gotta agree with you, unlike the state's constitutional provision, your proposal IS bat **** crazy
 
By all means, find me an expert who agrees that the problem is not principally economic and racial.

Do it.

You wanna know what hackery is Jack. Its people who express the nonsense that you just did. Than and your denial of reality. In your blind desire to attack the Democrats you ignore the fact that the slide began with 2 republicans and then continued with the democrats. In point of fact, the problem is economic and racial and politicians of both stripes contributed to it, messed it up a bit, and sure did not help or reverse it.

But the worst sort of stupid hackery is the people who want to turn this into a hate the democratic party lynching when they conveniently ignore that 10% of the population was lost under two republican mayors and that was the BEGINNING of the slide.

So you just will NOT be allowed to have it both ways Jack. You will not.


this biggest part of the slide was right after the '67 riots....businesses, white people, and money... they got up and left in droves.

the really big stuff started around 1970....the unintended consequences of over-regulating manufacturing industries

the finishing touch was NAFTA.... after NAFTA about half of Detroit's remaining manufacturing jobs were lost.

of course during these decades of policies having a direct effect on the economy of Detroit.... what happened?... well, politicians in Michigan tied Detroit's hands and made them unable to renegotiate some big ass debts.
when these promises were made, the city could handle the debt.... after all the factors took hold and left Detroit bereft of an adequate tax base... they were still forced to honor those promises, by law.
now we see what happens when we tie people hands when it comes to municipal fiscal management ,allow lawlessness, over-regulate manufacturing, and federally condone shipping jobs to neighboring countries.

we also see what happens when city and state legislators do not "change with the times".. we see what happens with people with little or no vision rule the roost.


and I know you don't like this, but the Democratic party and their policies have had a very ill effect on Detroit.... not just Democrats who ran Detroit, but state Democrats, and federal Democrats as well... the very agencies they pushed for, the very policies they pushed for... they all contributed to the fall of Detroit.

they've worked very hard, over the years, for "social justice" in that city.. combating discrimination and such... they just forgot to mind the bank accounts.. they forgot to plan ahead... they forgot to form a vision for Detroit in the changing economic world.

to be fair, I think most of this stuff falls under " unintended consequences"..I'm sure folks ruling the roost were well meaning and all that.
let's hope somebody, from now on, realizes that without business, without industry, with proper fiscal management policies... a city will fall.
all the well meaning mumbo jumbo about social justice, social policy, etc.. that all that takes a backseat to money.... dollars and cents make everything else possible... or impossible, as we are seeing today.
 
That I knew. I was speaking about your mentioning of a possible state bankruptcy proceeding.

All you're doing is kicking the can down the road. So if the city can't go bankrupt, the state has to pick up the slack, what happens when the state goes bankrupt? Do you expect the federal government to pick up the slack because they can print money? Is that what you're getting at?
 
There...is...no...money.

Democrats just don't get the concept.
Why doesn't Detroit just print some more? It works for the US. We print about 85 billion a month in funny money. That's working, isn't it?
 
signs of progress
you can now admit that republicans as well as democrats are responsible for welfare, in its various forms. kudos for being able to finally admit that reality
now that you know about the kool aid, lay off of it

Why would I hide it? What part of libertarian are you not grasping?

so, are you saying that having pensions is a bad thing?
if so, tell us why ... and explain what would be a better system to provide for those who are no longer employed

Yes, I'm saying having pensions is a bad thing. Why would I propose a better system to provide for those that aren't providing me a service? That makes no sense.

and it's obvious you have no understanding of basic economics
those employees already paid for those pensions
with years of their labor
now that they have satisfied their obligation to earn that income stream in their twilight years, when they are beyond the ability to return to their careers, you would opt to deny them the benefits they have paid for: with the sweat of their brow
your brand of compassionate conservatism has been found to be an illogical sham
based on your posts, you have yet to figure that out

How much can sweat from a brow buy? Is anyone in the market for sweat, and if so, would you actually want to do business with someone like that? Seriously though, I have no reason to accept the idea that I have to pay someone when they doing nothing. The years that they did provide me a service I paid them and now that is over there is no reason for me to continue to pay them. I have no reason to care for obligations made by the government they made to people at my expense.
 
I just watched a clip of Ed Shulz directly blaming Republicans for the fall of Detroit....calling it a "conservative utopia"

it's probably the funniest, most non factual, idiotic argument i've seen yet on the subject.

hehe, he even blames the emergency manager for people leaving Detroit...seriously, he did.

even funnier, the ticker has all the little idiot twitter comments coming in from people who agree with him.

full retard mode.. activate!

Ed Schultz Identifies Detroit's Fatal Flaw City Became A 'Conservative Utopia' - YouTube
 
really? you were asking a question and not making a statement?

it is a fabulous thing. its a constitutional provision to assure that those who have earned a pension can expect to receive it. ALL of it
it says pensioners have a right to the pension income they have earned by their labors

So a constitution should place obligations on the people and not just the government? Is that what you're saying?
 
Detroit began its slide under two consecutive Republican mayors from 1950 through 1961. During that time, under Cobo and Mariani, Detroit lost 10% of its population. That was the beginning of the end of a trend that is still in effect today.

But to blame this on a party is silly as no mayor is responsible for the two huge factors that killed Detroit:

1 - economic desertion of the city causing it to be abandoned by business and the middle class
2 - deeply ingrained racial problems

It was those two things which have taken Detroit from 1.8 million down to just over 700,000. And that is not the fault of a Republican or Democratic mayor.
Perhaps this brand of socialism, like every other brand, was just not done by the right people. If only they had a little more power to make the lives of their citizens miserable. If only there had been a wall to keep the city's victims from escaping the tyranny.
 
Perhaps this brand of socialism, like every other brand, was just not done by the right people. If only they had a little more power to make the lives of their citizens miserable. If only there had been a wall to keep the city's victims from escaping the tyranny.

well, if you listen to Melissa Harry-Perris... small government caused Detriot's collapse ..so you may be on to something :lol:
 
For those who are interested in gaining some insight into Detroit's fiscal problems, here's a good report:

http://www.crcmich.org/PUBLICAT/2010s/2010/rpt361.pdf

It should be noted that the situation has broadly and significantly deteriorated since that report was issued. Nevertheless, the report provides some basis for understanding the magnitude of challenges confronting Detroit.

Notice, for example, on Table 3, just 10.9% of Detroit's population have attained a bachelor's degree or higher vs. 27.7% for the nation as a whole. That's a colossal gap. The unemployment rate in Detroit was running at just over 24% (p.2) at the time of the report. In other words, Detroit was suffering from Great Depression-type conditions. If one also examines the monthly employment situation reports published by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, one finds unemployment is inversely related to educational attainment. Hence, not only was Detroit suffering from Great Depression-type conditions, a substantial share of its extreme incidence of unemployment is structural, not cyclical in nature. That means no quick reductions are likely anytime soon.

Today, the city is largely a desert when it comes to business formation and economic activity. It finds itself in that situation on account of, among other things, chronic disinvestment in education (city and state finances) that resulted in a labor pool that was increasingly unattractive to business. With the global economy growing more competitive, the premium on knowledge increasing in the information era, and reduced trade barriers creating ever higher costs associated with a lack of competitiveness, businesses looked elsewhere. Lack of economic opportunity is but one factor among a complex web of overlapping factors (i.e., rising crime, racial divisions, etc.) that have driven Detroit into crisis.

As the city's long-term structural situation deteriorated, both Michigan's and Detroit's political leaders were less responsive than they should have been given the gradual nature of the decay. They were far more bystanders than change agents.

Some on talk radio today cast the crisis as one of political ideology. Yet, if those hosts were right, then the GOP would have passed a balanced budget as affirmed by CBO, on repeated occasions, would have seamlessly addressed such social challenges as the immigration issue, and provided a coherent alternative health reform package that would have dramatically reduced uninsurance and slowed the rise of health costs, etc. That hasn't happened.

Moreover, Michigan has seen both Republican and Democratic governors, none of whom took a decisive approach to head off the crisis toward which Detroit was headed. Action occurred when it was universally evident that Detroit was on the brink of fiscal catastrophe, long after easy remedies were no longer available. In other words, as often happens in any organization, there was lack of comprehension of the gravity of the changing structural environment confronting Detroit, leading to more of a bias toward the status quo in policy making both at the State and City level than bold reform.

Going back to the point about Detroit's educational attainment problem, there was no major infusion of investment in Detroit's educational system to address what was becoming a severe gap in educational attainment. In part, that gap is the result of better educated residents departing for better opportunities and other socioeconomic reasons (depletion of human capital). In part, it is the result of grossly underperforming schools (failure to regenerate human capital).

Given these, among other complex socioeconomic issues, stabilizing Detroit's finances via bankruptcy will likely be one of the city's easier challenges. Putting the city on a sustainable path of growth, which depends on rebuilding human capital could be more difficult.
 
Present day Detroit is a shining example of what 60 years of corrupt Liberal policies will bring you. Yet being right there for the naked eye to see, like the charge of the light brigade these fools (not just in Detroit) will probably double down on socialism with the excuse that if they'd had 70% of your income instead of 50 that things would have been different. Its time for normal people to come to there senses & relegate this radical statist idealogy to the dustbin of history in the next election cycle.

A long term commitment back to the constitution is the only way to turn the mess around on a national level.
 
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Of course the problem is economic! Find me a bankruptcy that isn't.:lol: As far as racism... meh. Racism doesn't cause economic meltdowns like this. Corruption, mismanagement, and poor planning does.

Lets compare your posts and mine.

earlier in the day I was challenged by another poster to supply evidence for the claim that race played a major role in Detorits downfall. I supplied at least a half dozen sources to document this including several award winning books on the subject.

What do you do in your post? Attack me for one. Failing to provide any evidence that it was corruption that was the major factor in Detroit declaring bankruptcy is the second. But its not too late. Lets see the objective verifiable evidence to support your claim that

Racism doesn't cause economic meltdowns like this. Corruption, mismanagement, and poor planning does.

So step up and show us.

As for your sensitivity about democrats - do you really think this is about you? This thread has been filled with people vilifying democrats which ignoring republicans. Got it?

I told you this in post 401 when you did not want to hear about the two main causes of Detroits problems

By all means, find me an expert who agrees that the problem is not principally economic and racial.

You have been woefully impotent to present that expert. Why is that?
 
Detroit's fiscal catastrophe has nothing to do with the U.S. constitution.
I'm sorry but 60 years of Liberal socialist mayors along with organized Labor aka the mob, running the show..... you cant possibly be claiming these people were following the letter of the constitution? lol
 
I'm sorry but 60 years of Liberal socialist mayors along with organized Labor aka the mob, running the show..... you cant possibly be claiming these people were following the letter of the constitution? lol

I'm not saying that there hasn't been corruption. Indeed, corruption is being investigated with regard to some of the pension funds.

Detroit emergency manager launches pension corruption probe | Reuters

My point is that this fiscal crisis is much more than a matter of corruption. Corruption exacerbated Detroit's challenges, but the challenges had their roots beyond corruption e.g., dramatic population decline, particularly better educated persons.
 
Lets compare your posts and mine.

earlier in the day I was challenged by another poster to supply evidence for the claim that race played a major role in Detorits downfall. I supplied at least a half dozen sources to document this including several award winning books on the subject.

What do you do in your post? Attack me for one. Failing to provide any evidence that it was corruption that was the major factor in Detroit declaring bankruptcy is the second. But its not too late. Lets see the objective verifiable evidence to support your claim that



So step up and show us.

As for your sensitivity about democrats - do you really think this is about you? This thread has been filled with people vilifying democrats which ignoring republicans. Got it?

I told you this in post 401 when you did not want to hear about the two main causes of Detroits problems



You have been woefully impotent to present that expert. Why is that?

Coming soon to a city near you. Detroit in RUINS! (Crowder goes Ghetto) - YouTube
 
I'm not saying that there hasn't been corruption. Indeed, corruption is being investigated with regard to some of the pension funds.

Detroit emergency manager launches pension corruption probe | Reuters

My point is that this fiscal crisis is much more than a matter of corruption. Corruption exacerbated Detroit's challenges, but the challenges had their roots beyond corruption e.g., dramatic population decline, particularly better educated persons.

Yes, it's corruption, but it's corruption supported by an ideological electorate who are as intellectually corrupt as those who have raped the economy..
 
Detroit began its slide under two consecutive Republican mayors from 1950 through 1961. During that time, under Cobo and Mariani, Detroit lost 10% of its population. That was the beginning of the end of a trend that is still in effect today.

But to blame this on a party is silly as no mayor is responsible for the two huge factors that killed Detroit:

1 - economic desertion of the city causing it to be abandoned by business and the middle class
2 - deeply ingrained racial problems

It was those two things which have taken Detroit from 1.8 million down to just over 700,000. And that is not the fault of a Republican or Democratic mayor.

Why does this sound a lot like blame Bush for the mess that was inherited, but never mind that was not simply a couple of years ago, but 50 years ago. You needed that race card in the deck, that surely explains the lack of accounting skills to see this comming and make necessary adjustments. When the rats are fleeing the sinking ship it might be wise to see to the leak; actually, in Detroit's case, it was more like the rats stayed but the crew fled.
 
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Why does this sound a lot like blame Bush for the mess that was inherited, but never mind that was not simply a couple of years ago, but 50 years ago. You to have that race card in the deck, that surely explains the lack of accounting skills to see this comming and make necessary adjustments. When the rats are fleeing the sinking ship it might be wise to see to the leak; actually, in Detroit's case, it was more like the rats stayed but the crew fled.

Democrats have controlled the city for over half a century but it's still the fault of the Republicans. It's this sort of muddled ideological thinking that killed Detroit and why the country itself is now in decline.
 
Which still doesn't change the reality that THERE IS NO MONEY!

When are you going to get that through your head?

there is LOTS of money
just not enough to pay all the debts
so bankruptcy is the way to determine who gets paid and who does not get paid in full
and according to the state's constitution, the pensioners will get paid in full
those not protected by constitutional provisions - not so much. they will get what ever is left to divide for themselves
 
Absolutely. Every single ounce of my retirement planning is being done with the notion that my government pention will not actually occur. If it ends up still being something that is supported by the time I retire...excellent, bonus. But I'm RESPONSABLE enough and REALISTIC enough to understand that banking on being paid in perpetuity while I don't do a damn thing is a dumb exercise and not one I plan to partake in.

As a kid in his mid to late 20's I was already working with my wife in planning how we were going about planning for our retirement, and we're doing it without any expectation of my government pension. To me, that pension is a gamble just like any other form of retirement...not something I'm guaranteed.

since we have devolved the debate to the sharing of personal anecdotes, here is mine
in the tenth year of my retirement; while i do a lot of things, some of them to earn a supplemental income, nothing is required for me to receive my monthly check
defined retirement pension
at age 60, expect to draw it for many more years ... plus social security @age 65

so, if you work for a ****ty organization, your fear is rational
if not, then not
 
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