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Thread: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You are right that people did vote with their feet by leaving Detroit. However, it had precious little to do with liberalism or taxation since they normally moved to Wayne County suburbs where the people in charge were also Democrats and the taxes ended up even more than they were paying.
    There seems to be an implicit assumption behind the tax rates argument that municipalities are essentially commodities offering identical/nearly identical services, hence there's a high-responsiveness to tax rates. In reality, things are more complex. People had been leaving Detroit where tax rates are high/tax payments are low on account of depressed home values for areas in which they pay higher taxes. But for them, the higher taxes are well worth it, because they are getting far more marginal value in the form of better schools, better services, greater safety, more employment/career growth opportunities, among other things. They're willing to pay more in taxes to upgrade the quality of their life.

    The hypothesis that tax rates doomed Detroit is essentially the same as an argument that when stores charge higher prices, shoppers will only go to the dollar stores or other deep discount stores. That doesn't happen, because high-end stores offer sufficient extra value (more features, more service, more generous warranties, often more durable products, greater convenience, a more pleasant shopping experience, etc.) that makes it worthwhile for shoppers who have the income/finances to pay more to go there. Differentiation does exist and consumers are willing to pay for it. The same dynamic exists with regard to municipalities. Hence, the seemingly irrational decision for people to willingly pay higher taxes is a wholly rational one once the added value from their relocation is considered.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    There seems to be an implicit assumption behind the tax rates argument that municipalities are essentially commodities offering identical/nearly identical services, hence there's a high-responsiveness to tax rates. In reality, things are more complex. People had been leaving Detroit where tax rates are high/tax payments are low on account of depressed home values for areas in which they pay higher taxes. But for them, the higher taxes are well worth it, because they are getting far more marginal value in the form of better schools, better services, greater safety, more employment/career growth opportunities, among other things. They're willing to pay more in taxes to upgrade the quality of their life.

    The hypothesis that tax rates doomed Detroit is essentially the same as an argument that when stores charge higher prices, shoppers will only go to the dollar stores or other deep discount stores. That doesn't happen, because high-end stores offer sufficient extra value (more features, more service, more generous warranties, often more durable products, greater convenience, a more pleasant shopping experience, etc.) that makes it worthwhile for shoppers who have the income/finances to pay more to go there. Differentiation does exist and consumers are willing to pay for it. The same dynamic exists with regard to municipalities. Hence, the seemingly irrational decision for people to willingly pay higher taxes is a wholly rational one once the added value from their relocation is considered.
    Excellent points. You are correct - it is not about taxes be they high or low but what you get for them in return. People are indeed willing to pay higher taxes - in some cases triple or more compared to what they would pay for in Detroit - because it comes with better services and a better quality of life in the community.

    And that has not a thing to do with the charge of the failure of liberalism.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Earlier in this thread I provided a great amount of verifiable evidence showing that while the TAX RATE in Detroit is high the actual tax paid is rather low because the homes are valued at such low levels compared to the suburbs around it. Because of that reality, Detroiters who do move to the suburbs as you suggest - voting with their feet - are almost always voting themselves a TAX INCREASE in doing so.
    Do you realize how dishonest that is?

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Do you realize how dishonest that is?

    Feel free to elaborate and back that up.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Feel free to elaborate and back that up.
    Where to begin..

    How about that for each dollar that the land is valued at Detroit is bringing in more than areas with lower taxation. Of course, you already knew this. You just think that pointing out that the land is of such low value is actually meaningful and can deflect from the high taxation. You are also aware that if the rate is lower they are NOT voting themselves a tax increase.
    Last edited by Henrin; 07-24-13 at 09:35 AM.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Feel free to elaborate and back that up.
    Not really commenting to this post, but grabbed it to say this: Real estate taxes do not necessarily go down when property values decrease, even dramatically. Here's a case in point: 2532 Longfellow St, Detroit, MI 48206 - Home For Sale and Real Estate Listing - realtor.com® -- A home currently for sale in Detroit for $38,000. Real estate taxes? $2,700.

    In most jurisdictions, the tax rate is figured by dividing the budget by the aggregate total of real estate value.

    Example #1: A $1 million budget and $5 million in property valuation = a tax rate of 20-cents per thousand of evaluation. A guy with a $100,000 house is going to pay $200.

    Example #2: A $1 million budget and $2.5 million in property valuation = a tax rate of 40-cents per thousand of evaluation. A guy with a $50,000 house is going to pay $200.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Do you realize how dishonest that is?
    what i do notice is that while you repeatedly point to perceived dishonesty, you are never able to actually describe it
    it is but another fabricated post, offered only because it has become obvious that you are without anything substantial to otherwise offer
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Balls View Post
    It seems that the only thing that hasn't happened out of those 4 points is 60% of people moving out of the US. Most of our major business manufacture their products overseas (which also reduces our tax base) and we have a large amount of unemployed people.

    Not really hitting the same numbers, but we have been on our way.
    You also need to make 90% of your voter base liberal and a huge portion of the workforce unionized and then have them each vote themselves unsustainable benefits for a few decades. Then when the money runs out, claim that THE MONEY IS NOT ALLOWED TO RUN OUT!

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Where to begin..

    How about that for each dollar that the land is valued at Detroit is bringing in more than areas with lower taxation. Of course, you already knew this. You just think that pointing out that the land is of such low value is actually meaningful and can deflect from the high taxation. You are also aware that if the rate is lower they are NOT voting themselves a tax increase.
    You are playing with words to ignore the reality here that is beyond dispute: a person who owns a home in Detroit of the same size and age of one in the suburbs may indeed pay a higher rate on the property BUT the person in the suburbs pays more actual dollars even with a lower tax rate because the home is worth many times more.

    We are talking about actually out of pocket dollars and not some nonsense about dollar value of property.

    Because of that hard cold reality, people are actually increasing their out of pocket tax expense when they move to the suburbs of Detroit.

    So the idea that it was HIGH TAXES which caused them to flee Detroit is ridiculous as they pay even more tax to live in the suburbs.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    We have seen a great deal of right wing bluff and bluster on this issue. It right here in this forum for all to see. Identifying it is only proper.
    I suppose, in your world, it is preferred to actual debate.

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