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Thread: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Oh, Jack. Don't take the road another infamous poster takes on this site accusing posters of lying when they edit posts. I edit posts allllll the time. And it happens to me lots of times when I pull someone's post to reply to them if I reply quickly. Personally, I never think a thing about it.
    Maggie, I personally do not care if somebody complains about an edit...... in this case of Fabulous - since he got all hot and bothered about it - he needs to make a detailed explanation about what exactly in his mind was wrong with it.

    So far he refuses to do that.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    That is absurd. I have seen you say NOTHING... ZIP ... NADA .... ZERO ... about the two main problems which hurt Detroit and all you do is focus on the claim of corruption.
    What is absurd is that anyone looking at the situation would think that losing 60% percent of a population is not going to have an effect. OF COURSE IT IS. I mean, is it really that big of a mystery? The problem is that they have been bleeding population for decades and have not taken steps to remedy the situation. Do you really think that they didn't know YEARS ago that they were headed for trouble?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So tell us straight out - do you see this so called pension corruption as just as significant as the loss of 2/3 of the populaltion, the loss of the accompaning tax base, the loss of companies and the jobs they provided, and the racial divisions which have split the city and contributed to all those things?

    Tell us straight out so you cannot claim to be misrepresented. Tell us.
    I'll tell you this. 60% of a population does not pull up stakes and leave for no reason and they don't do it overnight. This has been an excruciatingly slow death.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Fabulous View Post
    What is absurd is that anyone looking at the situation would think that losing 60% percent of a population is not going to have an effect. OF COURSE IT IS. I mean, is it really that big of a mystery? The problem is that they have been bleeding population for decades and have not taken steps to remedy the situation. Do you really think that they didn't know YEARS ago that they were headed for trouble?



    I'll tell you this. 60% of a population does not pull up stakes and leave for no reason and they don't do it overnight. This has been an excruciatingly slow death.
    So answer the question so you do not accuse me of misinterpreting you again.

    Was the loss of 2/3 of Detroit's population and the loss of the tax base that went with it more or less important than this charge of corruption with the pension funds?

    And since you claimed that the City should have taken steps to stop the flow of population what steps would you have taken if you were in charge to have stopped that and saved the city?
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So answer the question so you do not accuse me of misinterpreting you again.

    Was the loss of 2/3 of Detroit's population and the loss of the tax base that went with it more or less important than this charge of corruption with the pension funds?

    And since you claimed that the City should have taken steps to stop the flow of population what steps would you have taken if you were in charge to have stopped that and saved the city?
    This is what you are not going to do here.

    You're not going to frame this around "Was the loss of 2/3 of Detroit's population and the loss of the tax base that went with it more or less important than this charge of corruption with the pension funds?" This is a strawman that you set up because I pointed out the corruption with the handling of the pension funds. Of course it pains you to have to admit that there indeed was a whole lot of corruption involved because your beloved Democrats were in charge of it. What you are attempting to do now is to claim that I said corruption is the main reason why the city is in trouble. I never made such a claim. I merely gave examples of corruption. The fact that you can't handle it is your problem, not mine.

    I'm not having any of these tactics, haymarket.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Fabulous View Post
    This is what you are not going to do here.

    You're not going to frame this around "Was the loss of 2/3 of Detroit's population and the loss of the tax base that went with it more or less important than this charge of corruption with the pension funds?" This is a strawman that you set up because I pointed out the corruption with the handling of the pension funds. Of course it pains you to have to admit that there indeed was a whole lot of corruption involved because your beloved Democrats were in charge of it. What you are attempting to do now is to claim that I said corruption is the main reason why the city is in trouble. I never made such a claim. I merely gave examples of corruption. The fact that you can't handle it is your problem, not mine.

    I'm not having any of these tactics, haymarket.
    Actually, I will frame things in any way I want to frame them.

    YOur posts speak for themselves. You attacked me for bringing up the economy and racial problems and said they were a GROSS MISREPRESENTATION.

    from your 400

    Your 2 points are also gross misrepresentations.


    In place of those two factors you opted instead to focus on pensions and underfunding of them claiming corruption.

    I don't care what you claim you will have and not have. its irrelevant to me. Your posts speak for themselves and while I wanted to discuss losing 2/3 of Detroits population, the loss of businesses and jobs, the loss of tax base, and the racial divide that led to the riots which only increased all those factors - you opted to bash pension funding.

    That is your record. That is your posts. That is reality.

    And you may notice than even other posters here like Maggie have noticed your meltdown about me simply editing a post. Are you ever going to explain why you melted down about something so routine and simple?
    Last edited by haymarket; 07-23-13 at 05:51 PM.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So answer the question so you do not accuse me of misinterpreting you again.

    Was the loss of 2/3 of Detroit's population and the loss of the tax base that went with it more or less important than this charge of corruption with the pension funds?

    And since you claimed that the City should have taken steps to stop the flow of population what steps would you have taken if you were in charge to have stopped that and saved the city?
    The 'corruption' in this case, is the Extraordinary population drop was gradual and Draconian belt-tightening should have come Much sooner.
    The Politicians were at least Criminally negligent and the voters.. the usual.. electing anyone who tells them the best lies: "we won't raise taxes or cut benefits": greedy and stupid.
    Even retired pensioners pensions are/Were Based on outdated assumptions/numbers. They must be cut unless the Feds step in.

    (UTGO is Unlimited Tax General Obligation Bond)
    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-18/bankrupt-detroit-shouldn-t-scalp-bondholders.html
    [.....]
    Those UTGO bonds were approved by voters and backed by tax revenue.
    They're generally about as safe as it gets.
    So treating them on par with unsecured pension debt is a good way to panic investors.
    Five other cities and three school districts in Michigan are also under emergency managers. About 10% of the state's population lives in a locality under budgetary oversight.
    School districts in Pontiac and Buena Vista have recently defaulted. If Orr follows through and treats those UTGO bonds the same as other unsecured debt, investors could be forgiven for wondering if the state is still committed to honoring its obligations.
    [.....]
    Not all the debt is UTGO, but some is.
    Last edited by mbig; 07-23-13 at 07:22 PM.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Actually, I will frame things in any way I want to frame them.
    Sure, you can frame things any way you want to. Just don't be surprised when I don't participate. Especially when you do so dishonestly like you have done repeatedly on this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    YOur posts speak for themselves. You attacked me for bringing up the economy and racial problems and said they were a GROSS MISREPRESENTATION.

    from your 400



    In place of those two factors you opted instead to focus on pensions and underfunding of them claiming corruption.
    No, that post was in response to this post from you...



    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Detroit began its slide under two consecutive Republican mayors from 1950 through 1961. During that time, under Cobo and Mariani, Detroit lost 10% of its population. That was the beginning of the end of a trend that is still in effect today.

    But to blame this on a party is silly as no mayor is responsible for the two huge factors that killed Detroit:

    1 - economic desertion of the city causing it to be abandoned by business and the middle class
    2 - deeply ingrained racial problems

    It was those two things which have taken Detroit from 1.8 million down to just over 700,000. And that is not the fault of a Republican or Democratic mayor.
    You dishonestly try to attribute some of Detroit's current problems to a couple of Republican Mayors who left office over a half century ago. You cherry picked a part of my post #400 and dropped it here as if it is somehow relevant. Here's the whole post...
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Fabulous View Post
    Detroit has had a Democrat in the Mayor's office since January 2, 1962. That's 51 years! Your 2 points are also gross misrepresentations. Detroit has suffered from corruption and financial mismanagement for decades. They put all of their eggs in one basket with the auto industry and they lacked any vision what so ever once it became clear that the auto industry could not carry their water. Bringing up two republican governors from more than half a century ago is just plain hackery... and really, REALLY stupid hackery at that.
    So while you may think you are doing something brilliant by claiming I said population loss isn't a contributing factor into Detroit's woes, you are not. You are only being dishonest... again. Because I never made any such claims.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    It's extremely unlikely that the U.S. will abandon its constitution anytime during the foreseeable future, especially as the amending process allows for flexibility. There is no serious movement to supplant the constitution with any alternative. By serious movement, I mean one that enjoys a significant share of the population and has or is gaining significant influence. Fringe elements do not constitute a serious movement in that direction.
    It is already gone.

    When was the last time the government was constrained in anything it wanted to do to us? We lost Constitutional protections while we slept.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The U.S. is currently a mixed economy. It is not, at least in the strict definition of the term, a socialist economy.
    At the rate we are moving toward a mix of fascism and socialism how much longer do you think it will take? Tyranny is already here. And it grows every day.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Legally bankrupt or just plain old bankrupt there is no money to pay these union pensioners so the result is the same.

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