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Thread: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Well ignoring the State Constitution of Michigan is exactly what the bankruptcy proceeding is attempting to do.
    Do you know what accrued means? From the constitution:

    24 Public pension plans and retirement systems, obligation.

    Sec. 24. The accrued financial benefits of each pension plan and retirement system of the state and its political subdivisions shall be a contractual obligation thereof which shall not be diminished or impaired thereby
    Let me explain it to you. A teacher/copper/fireman/street cleaner who's been with the city of Detroit for three years, has accrued 3 years vesting in any contractual obligation. Fifteen years tenure? Fifteen years of accrued financial benefits. That's what the constitution says.

    What it doesn't say is: "From your hire date and forever onward, new contracts changing the pension plan don't apply to you."

    Pay people their accrued benefits and carry on. Put them on normal Social Security like the working stiffs they serve enjoy. Or give them a 401K with a maximum taxpayer contribution of, say, 5% along with their Social Security. Those that the fund can't afford to pay off? Well, taxpayers are stuck with those. Right after the politicians who failed to fund them properly go to jail.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...nstitution.pdf
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    So you're fine with some people ignoring it then?
    I have roundly objected to this from the start.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Do you know what accrued means? From the constitution:



    Let me explain it to you. A teacher/copper/fireman/street cleaner who's been with the city of Detroit for three years, has accrued 3 years vesting in any contractual obligation. Fifteen years tenure? Fifteen years of accrued financial benefits. That's what the constitution says.

    What it doesn't say is: "From your hire date and forever onward, new contracts changing the pension plan don't apply to you."

    Pay people their accrued benefits and carry on. Put them on normal Social Security like the working stiffs they serve enjoy. Or give them a 401K with a maximum taxpayer contribution of, say, 5% along with their Social Security. Those that the fund can't afford to pay off? Well, taxpayers are stuck with those. Right after the politicians who failed to fund them properly go to jail.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...nstitution.pdf
    Okay Missy CPA (and I mean that most endearingly ) ..... explain it to me in very small words that a non number cruncher like me can understand. How does your post impact the people already retired that a few days ago you said they would not have to worry about any reductions? Do you still hold to that?
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Okay Missy CPA (and I mean that most endearingly ) ..... explain it to me in very small words that a non number cruncher like me can understand. How does your post impact the people already retired that a few days ago you said they would not have to worry about any reductions? Do you still hold to that?
    Yes, I do still hold to that. I don't think those who are retired (and close to retirement) have anything to worry about. Taxpayers cannot afford cash payouts of those costly accrued benefits, so the government is going to have to pony up. I hate being redundant, but I'll repeat: Right after the scoundrels who failed to properly fund these plans go to jail.

    Taxes should have been raised. Whatever it took. Whatever it took. The years of can-kicking going on in these public sector pension deficiencies is scandalous.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Fabulous View Post
    I quoted your post to respond to it. You edited it AFTER I had already clicked "reply with quote". What appears in MY post is the unedited version of what YOU posted. Not surprising that you would try to lie about that too.
    I sure hope you are coming back to meet the challenge. There is NO DIFFERENCE between my post as it now exists and the post you reproduced from me in yours where you get all angry and outraged about me editing it. People edit a post for typos all the time.

    What difference do you see in the two because there is none?

    So lets put aside your faux outrage and step up to the plate and state your case plain and simple with evidence comparing the two and you explaining me the difference?

    I sure hope you come back to answer this.
    Last edited by haymarket; 07-23-13 at 04:54 PM.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Right after the politicians who failed to fund them properly go to jail.
    This is what needs to happen! We need to remind these jackasses who works for who and show them that is crap will not be tolerated.

    I don't think governmnet workers should get pensions to begin with but a contract is a contract.
    Last edited by blaxshep; 07-23-13 at 04:55 PM.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Yes, I do still hold to that. I don't think those who are retired (and close to retirement) have anything to worry about. Taxpayers cannot afford cash payouts of those costly accrued benefits, so the government is going to have to pony up. I hate being redundant, but I'll repeat: Right after the scoundrels who failed to properly fund these plans go to jail.

    Taxes should have been raised. Whatever it took. Whatever it took. The years of can-kicking going on in these public sector pension deficiencies is scandalous.
    It was absolutely scandalous. I read an article yesterday which outlined some of the bad investments made with those pension funds. Among them were investments in development projects within the city that are now defunct. Imagine the cronyism involved with that process! City councilman gives his contractor buddy a giant contract to build "something". Buddy gets paid, councilman gets reelected, the "something" that was built is now worthless, and the pension fund is now out a couple of million bucks. The people put in charge of managing these funds also used a bogus model to project their future value. They "assumed" an 8% annual gain and then used that figure to claim that funding rates were upwards of 80% when they were really about 40% or lower.

    I do feel for the pensioners that are going to get shafted by this but you are absolutely right. People need to go to jail. What happened to Detroit is a crime.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I sure you are coming back to meet the challenge. There is NO DIFFERENCE between my post as it now exists and the post you reproduced from me in yours where you get all angry and outraged about me editing it. People edit a post for typos all the time.

    What difference do you see in the two because there is none?

    So lets put aside your faux outrage and step up to the plate and state your case plain and simple with evidence comparing the two and you explaining me the difference?

    I sure hope you come back to answer this.
    I sure would like to but that would not be within the topic of this thread. You are encouraging me to break forum rules. Bad form on your part.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by blaxshep View Post
    This is what needs to happen! We need to remind these jackasses who works for who and show them that is crap will not be tolerated.
    As soon as the very first funding payment!!! was missed, appropriate unions should have been in court filing suit. I blame them for that. They just sat back and let it happen - just like the politicians.

    There ought to be a law that if an entity keeps allowing shortfalls, they forfeit the right to complain. Something like our patent infringement or copyright infringement laws. Unions didn't want to make an issue of it because they didn't want sunshine on their Cadillac bennies. Well, here comes the light.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Fabulous View Post
    It was absolutely scandalous. I read an article yesterday which outlined some of the bad investments made with those pension funds. Among them were investments in development projects within the city that are now defunct. Imagine the cronyism involved with that process! City councilman gives his contractor buddy a giant contract to build "something". Buddy gets paid, councilman gets reelected, the "something" that was built is now worthless, and the pension fund is now out a couple of million bucks. The people put in charge of managing these funds also used a bogus model to project their future value. They "assumed" an 8% annual gain and then used that figure to claim that funding rates were upwards of 80% when they were really about 40% or lower.

    I do feel for the pensioners that are going to get shafted by this but you are absolutely right. People need to go to jail. What happened to Detroit is a crime.
    And how does this somehow mean more than sixty years of declining population from 1.8 million to 720,000?

    How does all this mean more than the loss of a million plus people and all the taxes that they would have paid over those decades>

    How does all this mean more than all the companies who left the city and took the jobs and taxes with them?

    How does this mean more than over a century of racial animosity in the city which contributed significantly to the exodus leaving the city depopulated and cash strapped with a mostly poor population?

    Explain to us how pension investments killed the city of Detroit?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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