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Thread: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Yesterday and also today, I made some references to Detroit's huge educational attainment gap, which has essentially left the city with a disproportionately uncompetitive labor pool. I also pointed out the strong indirect relationship between educational attainment and unemployment in the BLS's monthly employment situation reports. I've made the same point elsewhere.

    I was informed that at least one conservative sees a similar picture. After searching for the piece, I found a blog entry by former Heritage Foundation President Edwin Feulner. In part, he wrote:

    That city was once the picture of American industrial might. Henry Ford deployed the production line there and helped create the modern middle class. During World War II, more than a third of U.S. war material was manufactured in the city. During the postwar boom, cars made in Detroit embodied the American success story.

    Now, the Motor City is collapsing in every conceivable way.

    The unemployment rate is 18 percent, meaning almost 1 of every 5 people is out of work. A big reason is that the city's schools have failed. Just 7 percent of eighth-graders are proficient in reading. Only 12 percent of Detroit residents have college degrees. Yet Detroit teachers are the best-paid in the nation, the Mackinac Center for Public Policy says, when their pay is adjusted for purchasing power.


    He goes on to cite some outcomes from statewide referenda that could, in his opinion, be helpful to Detroit.

    Several points:

    1. Feulner demonstrates that not every conservative embraces the narrative that Detroit's fiscal catastrophe is a consequence of partisan governance.

    2. He shows a big picture understanding of the relationship between education-employment-outcomes (parenthetical note: his no longer serving as Heritage's President is a loss for the organization, both in terms of a loss of intellectual gravitas and ability to communicate coherent conservative viewpoints). This understanding almost certainly is shared beyond ideological lines and it is one area on which a coherent recovery framework would need to be developed if Detroit is to replenish its devastating loss of human capital so as to return to a growth trajectory (in terms of economic activity, socioeconomic indicators, etc.).

    3. It would be interesting to learn more about teacher compensation in Detroit: Did the compensation reflect a risk premium of sorts to induce people to teach in Detroit's schools, were they the result of collective bargaining agreements that were increasingly disconnected from outcomes, were other factors involved?

    4. The impact of the referenda outcomes he cites would depend on the factors that led to teacher compensation being what it is. If a risk premium is involved, the referenda outcomes would have little impact. If there were a fundamental disconnect between teacher compensation and outcomes at the school system level, it might offer some benefit (but empirical evidence related to reduced collective bargaining regarding salaries and also organizational outcomes is still very limited, so a large dose of caution is required).

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    since we have devolved the debate to the sharing of personal anecdotes, here is mine
    in the tenth year of my retirement; while i do a lot of things, some of them to earn a supplemental income, nothing is required for me to receive my monthly check
    defined retirement pension
    at age 60, expect to draw it for many more years ... plus social security @age 65

    so, if you work for a ****ty organization, your fear is rational
    if not, then not
    Guess it depends if you feel the Federal government is ****ty or not

    And it's not so much a fear as a purposeful skeptisism. My "organization" isn't tied to any product or good, it's contingent on people and politics. We've seen economies collapse, we've seen political pressure for all sorts of things, we see spirlaing up debt, we see questionable numbers regarding solvency. I think there's a fair chance my pension is there when I retire...I think there's at least a REASONABLE chance that it may not be as well, so I just don't bank on it.

    That way, if I DO get it, then that just makes things a bit more comfortable.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    I just watched a clip of Ed Shulz directly blaming Republicans for the fall of Detroit....calling it a "conservative
    utopia"

    it's probably the funniest, most non factual, idiotic argument i've seen yet on the subject.

    hehe, he even blames the emergency manager for people leaving Detroit...seriously, he did.

    even funnier, the ticker has all the little idiot twitter comments coming in from people who agree with him.

    full retard mode.. activate!

    Ed Schultz Identifies Detroit's Fatal Flaw City Became A 'Conservative Utopia' - YouTube
    Ed Schiltz is about half a retard isn't he. Right up there with Lawrence ODonnell and the rest of the ilk at MSNBC.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Fabulous View Post
    Umm.... I never posted a video. Are you mistaking me for someone else or are you lying... again?
    the video was from Grant. I thought you were supporting that video in your post 456 since you replied to my post directly about it and you changed the wording of sentences in the film to make it more acceptable.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I believe Haymarket's point is that one cannot conclude that Detroit's fiscal catastrophe is solely or largely the result of a given political party's governance. He points out that some of the critical factors e.g., onset of population decline, spanned city administrations from both parties. None of this means that single party domination doesn't have some adverse impact in governance outcomes, as one often sees such outcomes in uncompetitive markets. But the structural factors that led to Detroit's decline and current fiscal catastrophe are largely beyond issues of governance. Ineffectual governance exacerbated them and accelerated the slide. It did not create those structural factors.

    On a larger point to rebut the partisan hypothesis, one has witnessed underfunding of pensions in cities and states run by both parties. For example, Illinois faces enormous unfunded pension liabilities. Legal cases concerning underfunding were raised during the 1970s (Democratic governor) and 1990s (Republican governor).

    http://cgfa.ilga.gov/upload/2008%20j...case%20law.pdf

    One can see the appeal for a partisan explanation (aside from posturing for political gain), as such an explanation would seem to offer a simple fix. Unfortunately, convenient as a "simple fix" might be, the problems are of a magnitude and complexity that precludes any simple solutions. Putting the city on a more financially stable path via bankruptcy is probably the easy part of the issue. Restoring an environment of growth, safety, and reduced incidence of socioeconomic problems is the more difficult challenge. Diagnosing the issue as one of partisanship only detracts from gaining the understanding necessary to chart a path of recovery for Detroit.
    I am glad to see that some people can both read and think. Yes, that is my point. Glad you got it and only wish that all here were open to seeing the obvious.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Fabulous View Post
    Make no mistake about it, Haymarket's point is to run interference.
    It is interesting that others here saw my real point while others including yourself seemed blind to it in favor of harping the partisan line that Detroit has been ruled by Satan and is everything that is wrong with liberalism.

    His posts are nothing more than the defense mechanism of a true hack. That should be obvious to all by this point.
    Your view of hackery was NOT shared by Donsutherland1. So your quip about being obvious to all seems to be one huge fail. So one now has to wonder who the real hack is in this whole thing.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Ed Schiltz is about half a retard isn't he.
    Ed doesn't do anything half way!
    There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Yesterday and also today, I made some references to Detroit's huge educational attainment gap, which has essentially left the city with a disproportionately uncompetitive labor pool. I also pointed out the strong indirect relationship between educational attainment and unemployment in the BLS's monthly employment situation reports. I've made the same point elsewhere.
    I enjoy your posts. They are well written and thought provoking.

    You cited this in your post

    A big reason is that the city's schools have failed. Just 7 percent of eighth-graders are proficient in reading. Only 12 percent of Detroit residents have college degrees. Yet Detroit teachers are the best-paid in the nation, the Mackinac Center for Public Policy says, when their pay is adjusted for purchasing power.
    I have no idea where the Mackinaw center gets that figure as it is horribly wrong and I would bet a whole lot of money on it. I was part of the union bargaining team in DPS for several contracts. In the 890's and 90's and early 2,000's DPS was always in the bottom one third to one quarter of the tri county districts in SE Michigan. Since I retired some eight years ago, things have only gotten worse as I actually made more money in my final year than people at todays salary schedule due to three consecutive concession contracts.

    Here is the latest schedule

    http://www.nctq.org/docs/Detroit_Sal...y_13,_2011.pdf

    compare to this neighboring community district

    http://wwcsd.net/assets/pdfs/transpa...ract-final.pdf

    or this neighboring community school district

    http://www.gardencity.k12.ny.us/User...0%20Agenda.pdf

    or this district which abuts Detroit

    http://www.dft681.org/documents/DFT_...t_-_042611.pdf

    The Mackinaw Center is a notorious right wing organ that is almost always pushing kool aid for extremism. This is just another example of their dishonesty.
    Last edited by haymarket; 07-23-13 at 02:00 PM.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    So, according to your interpretation of the Michigan constitution, each resident (man, woman or child) of Michigan is now obligated to pony up about $900 to cover the shortfall of Detroit city workers' retirement benefits? When less than 30K people are able to "constitutionally" accrue over $9 billion in debt there just might be a problem with your state's oversight of Detroit's finances. You do realize that comes to an average of each Detroit city retiree being owed $3,000,000. How is that even possible? That is saying that each average Detroit city retiree will get more than $100,000/year for 30 years, assuming that the Detroit city retirement fund now contains nothing at all.
    no.the MI constitution does not say any of that. read the damn provision. it's been posted earlier in this thread

    what that constitutional language says is that the pensions cannot be diminished while adhering to the state's constitution
    that's what it says

    now how to do that
    don't diminish the pension benefits

    which means just that. there are funds to be applied to outstanding debts. apply them here. then take the rest and pay the indebtedness that remains, pennies on the dollar to secured creditors. unsecured creditors ... sorry about that
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    duh!
    when a debtor is without the means to pay their just financial obligations, then bankruptcy provisions are established just for such a circumstance

    here is a clue - one lost on many others, too - the chapter 9 bankruptcy rules are already established, for instances such as this

    such need for a municipality to file for bankruptcy was anticipated

    and in bankruptcy actions, there are different tiers of creditors. THAT is what this is about

    and if the provisions of the STATE constitution stand up in a FEDERAL bankruptcy court, the pensioners owed their retirement income by the city of detroit will receive their payments in full

    and if there is not enough money to pay every other creditor in full - as is expected - some (probably most) of them will have to settle for pennies on the dollar. unsecured creditors will probably not receive those pennies

    now come back and make another stupid post that does not advance this debate an iota; it has now become an expected "feature"
    Why would bankruptcy need be declared if, as you claim, there is LOTS of money? The fact is that there is not enough money to satisfy debts, making your LOTS of money claim highly foolish. In fact I have never heard of anyone ever claiming bankruptcy that there was still LOTS of money to go around. Now you are talking pennies on the dollar, despite LOTS of money. Democrats do appear to live in Bubbaworld.

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