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Thread: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    But the US catastrophe that must come will be the result of government moving beyond the Constitution.
    It's extremely unlikely that the U.S. will abandon its constitution anytime during the foreseeable future, especially as the amending process allows for flexibility. There is no serious movement to supplant the constitution with any alternative. By serious movement, I mean one that enjoys a significant share of the population and has or is gaining significant influence. Fringe elements do not constitute a serious movement in that direction.

    Socialism must eventually cause ruin.
    The U.S. is currently a mixed economy. It is not, at least in the strict definition of the term, a socialist economy.

    Detroit lets us stare our fate in the face.
    Detroit offers some lessons related to the depletion of human capital (population decline + departure of highly educated persons + failure of schools to regenerate human capital) in which the environment became inhospitable to economic activity, that decline in economic activity fueled significant socioeconomic problems, public finances deteriorated to the point where basic services were no longer provided effectively, all of which further compounded Detroit's problems.

    The U.S. as a whole does not face such a dire problem anytime soon. It does risk a continued erosion of its competitiveness on account of the stagnation of its educational attainment and emergent gap with OECD countries. Some of this gap is already being reflected in early indications that the rate of U.S. innovation is slowing, which means diminished long-run growth potential. The U.S. still has broad flexibility to address its major problems, as well as the capacity to make necessary investments. Hence, a decline is not inevitable. There is an alternative path. However, a continuation of political dysfunction will plant the U.S. on a less than optimal path, as the changing world requires more than the status quo (the default policy from political dysfunction).

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    We could turn Detroit into an oasis of growth in less than a year. Have Congress pass a law that says Those in Detroit will pay only one-half of whatever tax rates are published for all of us. No regulatory agency regulations shall be binding. They will be advisory only. This shall be true for the next 75 years.
    This is not a tax or regulatory problem. Its high crime, lack of basic services, enormous educational attainment gap that has created a largely uncompetitive labor pool, and other socioeconomic problems make it highly unattractive. Companies will not hire workers who cannot perform even if they paid no taxes, because they need to provide value in a competitive marketplace. Companies won't operate where their employees and assets are endangered on account of a lack of basic services e.g., effective law enforcement.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    There...is...no...money.

    Democrats just don't get the concept.
    Uh, no. Lemme correct that for you. . .

    "There..is..no..money..once..all..the..corporate.. welfare..is..paid"

    A Bipartisan Disaster: Michigan 'Corporate Welfare' Program Rolls On [Michigan Capitol Confidential]

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I am not certain what that was - but it certainly is not any expert providing verifiable evidence about the real causes of this problem.

    But if you feel I am wrong, by all means present your points using actual words and analysis instead of relying on some cheap you tube video made for a far right wing outlet to speak for you.

    Your video begins to lie just one minute in

    IT ALL STARTED WITH MAYOR JEROME CAVANAUGH ELECTED IN 1961......
    False. As has already been well documented - the slide began in 1951 and during the following decade Detroit lost 10% of its 1.8 million population. And the people who were mayor were not LEFTISTS or LIBERALS or SOCIALISTS as the liar behind this smear piece alleges the blame for Detroit lies with- they were.......... drum roll please ---- REPUBLICANS. Yes, the slide started under Republicans in 1951.

    So your film is based on a FALSE PREMISE and can be flushed right out of the gate.
    Last edited by haymarket; 07-23-13 at 10:00 AM.
    __________________________________________________ _
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    It doesn't matter whether they are included or not. There's no money to pay them.
    Um. . .

    Strategic bankruptcy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    False. As has already been well documented - the slide began in 1951 and during the following decade Detroit lost 10% of its 1.8 million population. And the people who were mayor were not LEFTISTS or LIBERALS or SOCIALISTS as the liar behind this smear piece alleges the blame for Detroit lies with- they were.......... drum roll please ---- REPUBLICANS. Yes, the slide started under Republicans in 1951.

    So your film is based on a FALSE PREMISE and can be flushed right out of the gate.
    If you want to look at this from the partisan hack angle, lets try it from the opposite sideline and see what it looks like...


    "After 10 years under Republican leadership Detroit finds itself with a 10% population loss and signs that the auto industry may not be viable over the long term. Beginning in January of 1962 a bold new Democratic leadership takes the helm and vows to right the ship and lead Detroit back to prosperity!

    50 years later, under the guidance of strong Democratic leadership Detroit finds itself...<drum roll>... in ruins. Over half of the population now gone, vast stretches of real estate in decay, and the city coffers now dry, Detroit officially throws in the towel and files bankruptcy."



    I dunno, haymarket. You may not want to go down this road. Going "hack" has a way of coming back around to bite you in the ass. That's free advice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Fabulous View Post
    If you want to look at this from the partisan hack angle, lets try it from the opposite sideline and see what it looks like...


    "After 10 years under Republican leadership Detroit finds itself with a 10% population loss and signs that the auto industry may not be viable over the long term. Beginning in January of 1962 a bold new Democratic leadership takes the helm and vows to right the ship and lead Detroit back to prosperity!

    50 years later, under the guidance of strong Democratic leadership Detroit finds itself...<drum roll>... in ruins. Over half of the population now gone, vast stretches of real estate in decay, and the city coffers now dry, Detroit officially throws in the towel and files bankruptcy."



    I dunno, haymarket. You may not want to go down this road. Going "hack" has a way of coming back around to bite you in the ass. That's free advice.
    I believe Haymarket's point is that one cannot conclude that Detroit's fiscal catastrophe is solely or largely the result of a given political party's governance. He points out that some of the critical factors e.g., onset of population decline, spanned city administrations from both parties. None of this means that single party domination doesn't have some adverse impact in governance outcomes, as one often sees such outcomes in uncompetitive markets. But the structural factors that led to Detroit's decline and current fiscal catastrophe are largely beyond issues of governance. Ineffectual governance exacerbated them and accelerated the slide. It did not create those structural factors.

    On a larger point to rebut the partisan hypothesis, one has witnessed underfunding of pensions in cities and states run by both parties. For example, Illinois faces enormous unfunded pension liabilities. Legal cases concerning underfunding were raised during the 1970s (Democratic governor) and 1990s (Republican governor).

    http://cgfa.ilga.gov/upload/2008%20j...case%20law.pdf

    One can see the appeal for a partisan explanation (aside from posturing for political gain), as such an explanation would seem to offer a simple fix. Unfortunately, convenient as a "simple fix" might be, the problems are of a magnitude and complexity that precludes any simple solutions. Putting the city on a more financially stable path via bankruptcy is probably the easy part of the issue. Restoring an environment of growth, safety, and reduced incidence of socioeconomic problems is the more difficult challenge. Diagnosing the issue as one of partisanship only detracts from gaining the understanding necessary to chart a path of recovery for Detroit.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I believe Haymarket's point is that one cannot conclude that Detroit's fiscal catastrophe is solely or largely the result of a given political party's governance. He points out that some of the critical factors e.g., onset of population decline, spanned city administrations from both parties. None of this means that single party domination doesn't have some adverse impact in governance outcomes, as one often sees such outcomes in uncompetitive markets. But the structural factors that led to Detroit's decline and current fiscal catastrophe are largely beyond issues of governance. Ineffectual governance exacerbated them and accelerated the slide. It did not create those structural factors.
    Make no mistake about it, Haymarket's point is to run interference. Any fool can clearly see that the actions taken by leadership over a half century ago have absolutely no bearing on the situation today and bringing it into the discussion serves no purpose other than to assign a portion of the blame to "the other side". While you and I know full well that the circumstances which led Detroit to the position it is in today go FAR beyond anything that can be attributed to ideology, Haymarket is simply unable to get passed it. He perceives, and rightly so, that "his team" is taking the brunt of the blame for this and he will inject anything, no matter how obscure and meaningless, to try to deflect as much of that perceived blame as he can.

    His posts are nothing more than the defense mechanism of a true hack. That should be obvious to all by this point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Fabulous View Post
    If you want to look at this from the partisan hack angle:
    And that is just what you did with this stupid video filled with lies and distortions intended to appeal to the far right wing true believers who already think Detroit is an annex of hades and Satan has been the mayor forever. I watched a bit of it and had no trouble showing you the outright LIE that he led with.

    You are using words like hack when that is the very evidence that you attempted to pass of on us - the epitome of right wing hackery.

    Now if you are serious try to find some respected experts to support your points. So far, you have presented none.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And that is just what you did with this stupid video filled with lies and distortions intended to appeal to the far right wing true believers who already think Detroit is an annex of hades and Satan has been the mayor forever. I watched a bit of it and had no trouble showing you the outright LIE that he led with.

    You are using words like hack when that is the very evidence that you attempted to pass of on us - the epitome of right wing hackery.

    Now if you are serious try to find some respected experts to support your points. So far, you have presented none.
    Umm.... I never posted a video. Are you mistaking me for someone else or are you lying... again?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.

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