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Thread: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

  1. #441
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    It doesn't matter if you are a federal retiree
    It doesn't matter if you were a government worker
    It doesn't matter if it applies to federal and many state and municipal workers.
    I'm well aware of the arrangement made and describing it does not warrant it's existence.
    let's look at your post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    It seems to me what you're saying deals with the agreement you made with your employer and since we are dealing with government workers there is no such thing as "market rates" for the work completed. In fact, in many areas there isn't even a comparison to be made.
    there are very few positions in government service where there are not also civilian counterparts
    which then tells us there are benchmarks for market value of jobs
    which then tells us that your post is wrong - again

    At the point the pension starts to be taken out pensioners are getting payment for doing nothing and the agreement to take less while working has no effect on this.
    the pension is not paid for future work, or for contemporaneous work. it was the commitment - the financial obligation of the employer to the employee - the city to the employee in this instance - for PAST work. work often performed at below market wages
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    the reich wing position that red states and their republican dominated governments are more financially astute is proven wrong by the facts
    those red states require a substantially greater federal subsidy than the demo dominated blue states
    and the reason is that republican politicians are ****ty at fiscal policy
    Actually, the Fed's own websites have proved that incorrect.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

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  3. #443
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Why does this sound a lot like blame Bush for the mess that was inherited, but never mind that was not simply a couple of years ago, but 50 years ago. You needed that race card in the deck, that surely explains the lack of accounting skills to see this comming and make necessary adjustments. When the rats are fleeing the sinking ship it might be wise to see to the leak; actually, in Detroit's case, it was more like the rats stayed but the crew fled.
    It doesn't take an economic genius to see that if you are paying your Visa card with your Mastercard you will have a problem. Borrowing to simply to pay pensions should have been the first clue that something was a little off.
    There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    you have only proven that, like most libertarians, you have zero knowledge of basic economics

    many of us have worked for a wage and the guaranty of a pension upon completion of a certain number of years working. often, the wage is at less than market rates, recognizing that the future pension benefit compensates for the diminished immediate wage income. pay me some now, and the rest later

    its stunning how little about real life economics escapes people on this forum; most frequently by those who (pre)tend to espouse fiscally conservative leanings
    With the exception of the military, it doesn't exist anymore. You found the holy grail if you are in your 20s - 30s and your are getting a pension.
    We went from sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me to safe spaces.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    Work often performed at below market wages
    !!
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Detroit's fiscal catastrophe has nothing to do with the U.S. constitution.
    But the US catastrophe that must come will be the result of government moving beyond the Constitution.

    Socialism must eventually cause ruin. Detroit lets us stare our fate in the face.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    it is obvious that you do not


    no, the government workers agree to a compensation package. one that accepts often less than market wages today for a pension benefit that will be due upon fulfilling the requirements to become vested in the retirement system

    now, prudent fiscal policy would tell the government leaders that the appropriate thing to then do is place the wage savings into a sinking fund to cover future retirement costs

    but too many states and municipalities - like detroit - underfunded the retirement system to cover those pension payments when they became due

    which is why the state's constitutional provision is so prescient. it is intended to prevent the pensioner from being hurt by such poor fiscal governance as is evident in detroit
    So, according to your interpretation of the Michigan constitution, each resident (man, woman or child) of Michigan is now obligated to pony up about $900 to cover the shortfall of Detroit city workers' retirement benefits? When less than 30K people are able to "constitutionally" accrue over $9 billion in debt there just might be a problem with your state's oversight of Detroit's finances. You do realize that comes to an average of each Detroit city retiree being owed $3,000,000. How is that even possible? That is saying that each average Detroit city retiree will get more than $100,000/year for 30 years, assuming that the Detroit city retirement fund now contains nothing at all.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  8. #448
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Lets compare your posts and mine.

    earlier in the day I was challenged by another poster to supply evidence for the claim that race played a major role in Detorits downfall. I supplied at least a half dozen sources to document this including several award winning books on the subject.

    What do you do in your post? Attack me for one. Failing to provide any evidence that it was corruption that was the major factor in Detroit declaring bankruptcy is the second. But its not too late. Lets see the objective verifiable evidence to support your claim that



    So step up and show us.
    Oh just stop it now. On post 383 I sourced an article which clearly and factually lays out the financial realities that Detroit is faced with. On post 398 I linked a source which provides information on specific examples of corruption and cronyism which led to significant losses in their pension funds. This part of your post is now rendered impotent. I would appreciate a little more honesty out of you if you wish to continue. After all, I should not have to waste my time pointing out dishonest tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    As for your sensitivity about democrats - do you really think this is about you? This thread has been filled with people vilifying democrats which ignoring republicans. Got it?
    Again with the dishonesty, haymarket. Here are your exact words...

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    By all means, find me an expert who agrees that the problem is not principally economic and racial.

    Do it.

    You wanna know what hackery is Jack. Its people who express the nonsense that you just did. Than and your denial of reality. In your blind desire to attack the Democrats you ignore the fact that the slide began with 2 republicans and then continued with the democrats. In point of fact, the problem is economic and racial and politicians of both stripes contributed to it, messed it up a bit, and sure did not help or reverse it.
    "In YOUR blind desire to attack Democrats". In a post that is a direct response to me the word "your" most certainly refers to me and me alone. I find the level of dishonesty that you engage in to be quite disturbing and I hope others reading along take note of it. It makes any rational discussion impossible and it is a very poor reflection, not only on you, but on the positions and issues that you choose to support. Who needs liars on their team?
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    please try to read for understanding

    the state's constitution established provisions on behalf of its citizens.

    can you grasp that? if not, pose a question describing what you do not understand
    Then let the state deal with it. Either way it is not my problem. Detroit made its bed...

    We could turn Detroit into an oasis of growth in less than a year. Have Congress pass a law that says Those in Detroit will pay only one-half of whatever tax rates are published for all of us. No regulatory agency regulations shall be binding. They will be advisory only. This shall be true for the next 75 years.

    Problem solved. There will not be enough room to contain all of the businesses that will flock there.

    Of course we could do the same for the nation.

  10. #450
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    !!
    Yep. You are obviously not getting a "market" retirement plan if you will get less that $100,000/year in benefits.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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