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Thread: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Fabulous View Post
    Detroit has had a Democrat in the Mayor's office since January 2, 1962. That's 51 years! Your 2 points are also gross misrepresentations. Detroit has suffered from corruption and financial mismanagement for decades. They put all of their eggs in one basket with the auto industry and they lacked any vision what so ever once it became clear that the auto industry could not carry their water. Bringing up two republican governors from more than half a century ago is just plain hackery... and really, REALLY stupid hackery at that.
    By all means, find me an expert who agrees that the problem is not principally economic and racial.

    Do it.

    You wanna know what hackery is Jack. Its people who express the nonsense that you just did. Than and your denial of reality. In your blind desire to attack the Democrats you ignore the fact that the slide began with 2 republicans and then continued with the democrats. In point of fact, the problem is economic and racial and politicians of both stripes contributed to it, messed it up a bit, and sure did not help or reverse it.

    But the worst sort of stupid hackery is the people who want to turn this into a hate the democratic party lynching when they conveniently ignore that 10% of the population was lost under two republican mayors and that was the BEGINNING of the slide.

    So you just will NOT be allowed to have it both ways Jack. You will not.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Fabulous View Post
    The creditors you are referring to are the bond holders. Whenever a city needs money for a construction project or something, they sell bonds. These bonds are bought by many different sources, most of which wind up being part of someone's IRA or 401k. It is incredibly inaccurate and disingenuous to refer to this as "corporate interests". Without bond holders the city could not function because municipal bonds provide the exclusive means that the city has used to finance itself.
    no, the creditors include every entity owed money by the city of detroit; from bond holders, to the office supply company which extends credit, to the current employees who are owed their wages, to the retirees who were promised a pension as part of the compensation for their labor

    There is going to have to be shared sacrifice here.
    and that is the point of the judge's ruling, based on the state constitution prohibiting any diminution of pension benefits
    the upcoming financial haircut must fall on creditors other than pensioners in order to remain compliant with the state's constitution

    I just read that Detroit has annual revenues of about $1.1 billion and has been running a $300+ million dollar deficit and they're losing about $100 million in revenue every year due to population loss. Looks to me like their budget needs some drastic trimming.
    sure does
    i am guessing that is why the bankruptcy filing occurred; as a mechanism to reduce the city's indebtedness to a point that debt service requirements no longer exceed the city's ability to pay
    and hopefully, the creditors other than pensioners will be required to take the upcoming haircut

    This SHOULD be the starting point.
    i think the decision to file chapter 9 bankruptcy was the starting point
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    By all means, find me an expert who agrees that the problem is not principally economic and racial.
    Of course the problem is economic! Find me a bankruptcy that isn't. As far as racism... meh. Racism doesn't cause economic meltdowns like this. Corruption, mismanagement, and poor planning does.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You wanna know what hackery is Jack. Its people who express the nonsense that you just did. Than and your denial of reality. In your blind desire to attack the Democrats you ignore the fact that the slide began with 2 republicans and then continued with the democrats. In point of fact, the problem is economic and racial and politicians of both stripes contributed to it, messed it up a bit, and sure did not help or reverse it.
    Show me where I attacked Democrats.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    But the worst sort of stupid hackery is the people who want to turn this into a hate the democratic party lynching when they conveniently ignore that 10% of the population was lost under two republican mayors and that was the BEGINNING of the slide.
    Again, show me where I attacked Democrats. You can't. I didn't. You're just way over sensitive here because this whole mess is reflecting poorly upon the leadership of Detroit... which happens to be Democrat.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So you just will NOT be allowed to have it both ways Jack. You will not.
    I'll have it any way I want it and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. I'm not the one who checked out into Hacksterville here. That one's all you, buddy.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    I can accept that source as long as we all remember that haymarket supports this quote from that same source too: Unions helped drive a stake in the auto industry. We all know this, some just hate admitting it, I think there is a recent thread about "the myth that unions hurt the auto industry". What's important is that Detroit faced nothing that to some degree many other cities have faced to one degree or another. They were hit hardest, but everyone understands that's because they were so heavily invested in one specific industry. All their eggs in one basket, of course that was high risk, and the severity of the collapse directly related to that ultra-high-risk investment in that one industry. When it declined, people understandably left. Maybe you should have put in the constitution that the white taxpayers were forbidden to leave, or they still have to pay Detroit taxes once they move....I mean, why stop with insane, just go for bat-****-crazy?
    gotta agree with you, unlike the state's constitutional provision, your proposal IS bat **** crazy
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    By all means, find me an expert who agrees that the problem is not principally economic and racial.

    Do it.

    You wanna know what hackery is Jack. Its people who express the nonsense that you just did. Than and your denial of reality. In your blind desire to attack the Democrats you ignore the fact that the slide began with 2 republicans and then continued with the democrats. In point of fact, the problem is economic and racial and politicians of both stripes contributed to it, messed it up a bit, and sure did not help or reverse it.

    But the worst sort of stupid hackery is the people who want to turn this into a hate the democratic party lynching when they conveniently ignore that 10% of the population was lost under two republican mayors and that was the BEGINNING of the slide.

    So you just will NOT be allowed to have it both ways Jack. You will not.

    this biggest part of the slide was right after the '67 riots....businesses, white people, and money... they got up and left in droves.

    the really big stuff started around 1970....the unintended consequences of over-regulating manufacturing industries

    the finishing touch was NAFTA.... after NAFTA about half of Detroit's remaining manufacturing jobs were lost.

    of course during these decades of policies having a direct effect on the economy of Detroit.... what happened?... well, politicians in Michigan tied Detroit's hands and made them unable to renegotiate some big ass debts.
    when these promises were made, the city could handle the debt.... after all the factors took hold and left Detroit bereft of an adequate tax base... they were still forced to honor those promises, by law.
    now we see what happens when we tie people hands when it comes to municipal fiscal management ,allow lawlessness, over-regulate manufacturing, and federally condone shipping jobs to neighboring countries.

    we also see what happens when city and state legislators do not "change with the times".. we see what happens with people with little or no vision rule the roost.


    and I know you don't like this, but the Democratic party and their policies have had a very ill effect on Detroit.... not just Democrats who ran Detroit, but state Democrats, and federal Democrats as well... the very agencies they pushed for, the very policies they pushed for... they all contributed to the fall of Detroit.

    they've worked very hard, over the years, for "social justice" in that city.. combating discrimination and such... they just forgot to mind the bank accounts.. they forgot to plan ahead... they forgot to form a vision for Detroit in the changing economic world.

    to be fair, I think most of this stuff falls under " unintended consequences"..I'm sure folks ruling the roost were well meaning and all that.
    let's hope somebody, from now on, realizes that without business, without industry, with proper fiscal management policies... a city will fall.
    all the well meaning mumbo jumbo about social justice, social policy, etc.. that all that takes a backseat to money.... dollars and cents make everything else possible... or impossible, as we are seeing today.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    ...the fact that the slide began with 2 republicans and then continued with the democrats...
    That's beyond hackery, that's desperation.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    That I knew. I was speaking about your mentioning of a possible state bankruptcy proceeding.
    All you're doing is kicking the can down the road. So if the city can't go bankrupt, the state has to pick up the slack, what happens when the state goes bankrupt? Do you expect the federal government to pick up the slack because they can print money? Is that what you're getting at?
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    There...is...no...money.

    Democrats just don't get the concept.
    Why doesn't Detroit just print some more? It works for the US. We print about 85 billion a month in funny money. That's working, isn't it?

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    signs of progress
    you can now admit that republicans as well as democrats are responsible for welfare, in its various forms. kudos for being able to finally admit that reality
    now that you know about the kool aid, lay off of it
    Why would I hide it? What part of libertarian are you not grasping?

    so, are you saying that having pensions is a bad thing?
    if so, tell us why ... and explain what would be a better system to provide for those who are no longer employed
    Yes, I'm saying having pensions is a bad thing. Why would I propose a better system to provide for those that aren't providing me a service? That makes no sense.

    and it's obvious you have no understanding of basic economics
    those employees already paid for those pensions
    with years of their labor
    now that they have satisfied their obligation to earn that income stream in their twilight years, when they are beyond the ability to return to their careers, you would opt to deny them the benefits they have paid for: with the sweat of their brow
    your brand of compassionate conservatism has been found to be an illogical sham
    based on your posts, you have yet to figure that out
    How much can sweat from a brow buy? Is anyone in the market for sweat, and if so, would you actually want to do business with someone like that? Seriously though, I have no reason to accept the idea that I have to pay someone when they doing nothing. The years that they did provide me a service I paid them and now that is over there is no reason for me to continue to pay them. I have no reason to care for obligations made by the government they made to people at my expense.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    I just watched a clip of Ed Shulz directly blaming Republicans for the fall of Detroit....calling it a "conservative utopia"

    it's probably the funniest, most non factual, idiotic argument i've seen yet on the subject.

    hehe, he even blames the emergency manager for people leaving Detroit...seriously, he did.

    even funnier, the ticker has all the little idiot twitter comments coming in from people who agree with him.

    full retard mode.. activate!

    Ed Schultz Identifies Detroit's Fatal Flaw City Became A 'Conservative Utopia' - YouTube

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