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Thread: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The section you quoted refers to bonds issued by the State or by school districts.
    Which Detroit is a part of. Why would they be separate?
    There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Heebie Jeebie View Post
    Which Detroit is a part of. Why would they be separate?
    Because Detroit issues its own bonds backed by its own faith and credit. The State issues its own bonds. School districts issue their own bonds. The part of the Constitution you quoted seems to indicate that municipal bonds are not included in the State guaranty since it only mention State and school district bonds.



    "Rights and obligations to remain unimpaired.
    All rights acquired under Sections 27 and 28 of Article X of the Constitution of 1908, by
    holders of bonds heretofore issued, and all obligations assumed by the state or any school
    district under these sections, shall remain unimpaired."

    I am saying this however without the earlier constitution in front of me.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    This article combined with a few facts I learned earlier today give a pretty clear picture of how bad this really is.

    Detroit hoping to cut pension, retiree health obligations | LifeHealthPro

    According to this source...
    More than 42 percent of Detroit's 2013 revenues went to required bond, pension, health care and other payments. If the city continues operating the way it had before Orr arrived, those costs would take up nearly 65 percent of city spending by 2017, Orr's team said.
    Currently, Detroit collects about $1.1 billion in revenue annually. Dumping the bond holders won't be enough. Not even close.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Both republicans and democrats have corporatist tendencies and both love corporate welfare. The kool-aid is spiked, be careful. As for this, it's union freebies at the taxpayers expense.
    signs of progress
    you can now admit that republicans as well as democrats are responsible for welfare, in its various forms. kudos for being able to finally admit that reality
    now that you know about the kool aid, lay off of it



    No, they knew that people would fight the idea of pensions forever and made sure to shut them up. It's really too bad the idea was always stupid and it didn't matter one bit in the end that they protected them by their Constitution.
    so, are you saying that having pensions is a bad thing?
    if so, tell us why ... and explain what would be a better system to provide for those who are no longer employed



    Obviously, I hate paying for people when they are NOT working and not providing me a thing in return for it.
    and it's obvious you have no understanding of basic economics
    those employees already paid for those pensions
    with years of their labor
    now that they have satisfied their obligation to earn that income stream in their twilight years, when they are beyond the ability to return to their careers, you would opt to deny them the benefits they have paid for: with the sweat of their brow
    your brand of compassionate conservatism has been found to be an illogical sham
    based on your posts, you have yet to figure that out
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Good question. I expect some would support it while others would not. It would be divisive.
    You have claimed you live in Michigan, would you support it?

    I would think it would be more divisive. I would think this could destroy the autonomy of cities/towns if they could create obligations for which everyone in the state would be on the hook.

    I have heard that the total debt is $18 billion and pensions were about $3.5 billion. For what is the other $14.5 billion?

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Because Detroit issues its own bonds backed by its own faith and credit. The State issues its own bonds. School districts issue their own bonds. The part of the Constitution you quoted seems to indicate that municipal bonds are not included in the State guaranty since it only mention State and school district bonds.






    I am saying this however without the earlier constitution in front of me.
    Well it if gets to be to much for them to pay they can always change the Constitution!
    There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences.
    P. J. O'Rourke

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    You have claimed you live in Michigan, would you support it?

    I would think it would be more divisive. I would think this could destroy the autonomy of cities/towns if they could create obligations for which everyone in the state would be on the hook.

    I have heard that the total debt is $18 billion and pensions were about $3.5 billion. For what is the other $14.5 billion?
    One point to remember is that cities and towns ARE NOT autonomous. They are creations of the state and operate under the watchful eye of the state and are subject to takeover - as many cities and towns now are by the state.

    I believe the numbers are something that people cannot even agree on. The last time we were presented the numbers in Lansing they were all over the map depending on how well the pension funds do with their investments. if they get back 7 or 8% a year - they are in great shape. If they only return 1 or 2% a year - they are in trouble. The numbers then depend on that return.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Time will tell about that since pension obligations are payable in drips and drops over a very long period of time.

    And it changes nothing regarding the Constitutional provision against diminishing a pension. If the city cannot raise the funds, it is the State Constitution which will be used to make the State pay.
    And when the state goes bankrupt? What then?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    That does nothing to answer my question.
    really? you were asking a question and not making a statement?

    How is putting obligations on the people in a constitution a good thing?
    it is a fabulous thing. its a constitutional provision to assure that those who have earned a pension can expect to receive it. ALL of it
    it says pensioners have a right to the pension income they have earned by their labors

    I could care less about the promises made to workers of the state.
    how much less could you care
    and why would you want to tell this to us
    it has no bearing on the topic of discussion
    i don't give a **** what you care about or how much or little you care about it

    Really, I could care less.
    so, you could care less about it
    i could give a **** what you care about

    The city is broke, so such promises are moot.
    that the city is insolvent does NOT mean it is without the means to cover these pension obligations
    it just means that those pension obligations will be paid first from the available monies
    only then can whatever remains be used to pay other creditors
    they will take a larger haircut so that the pensioners - consistent with the state constitution - take none
    didn't any wingers study economics of civics? why so much ignorance about that which should be found basic?
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    And when the state goes bankrupt? What then?
    I work for the state. Do you know something that I do not know about this possibility?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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