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Thread: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    here is a hint
    obviously you need it
    this means that within the bankruptcy, the pensioners cannot be compelled to take a financial haircut
    not true of other creditors
    So if it's Unconstitutional to cut pensions because the Michigan Consitution prohibits it, why is it ok to default on Bonds, when the Michigan Constitution prohibits it?

    "Rights and obligations to remain unimpaired.
    All rights acquired under Sections 27 and 28 of Article X of the Constitution of 1908, by
    holders of bonds heretofore issued, and all obligations assumed by the state or any school
    district under these sections, shall remain unimpaired."

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...nstitution.pdf
    There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    I don't think it is the people in the federal government that are the problem. They are unable to be effective because of partisanship and corruption. It doesns't matter who you put in office. It will be the same until the system is fixed, proper incentives put in place and partisanship brought under control.
    There must have been many who wanted to get rid of the corruption but were powerless. Most just left instead.

    An honest media may have helped but they seem to have become part of the problem.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Perhaps the judge read the Michigan Constitution?

    STATE CONSTITUTION (EXCERPT) CONSTITUTION OF MICHIGAN OF 1963
    24 Public pension plans and retirement systems, obligation.
    Sec. 24. The accrued financial benefits of each pension plan and retirement system of the state and its political subdivisions shall be a contractual obligation thereof which shall not be diminished or impaired thereby.
    Which still doesn't change the reality that THERE IS NO MONEY!

    When are you going to get that through your head?
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The pensions would be backed by the State of Michigan. And they are NOT in danger of bankruptcy.
    The State of Michigan isn't obligated to pay for the debts of Detroit, any more than they are obligated to pay for the mortgages of the people of Michigan. They didn't sign the contracts, they are not financially responsible. Try again.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Would you favor the federal courts using that provision to trump the State Constitution?
    I don't know. Bankruptcy courts typically have a lot of latitude in their rulings. My concern is that I don't know the alternatives being proposed by those who filed to block the bankruptcy. It would seem to me that if the city can't pay and the item in the state constitution says that public pensioners must be kept whole, then they would want to have the state pay up. How would that go over in the rest of Michigan?

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Which still doesn't change the reality that THERE IS NO MONEY!

    When are you going to get that through your head?
    Time will tell about that since pension obligations are payable in drips and drops over a very long period of time.

    And it changes nothing regarding the Constitutional provision against diminishing a pension. If the city cannot raise the funds, it is the State Constitution which will be used to make the State pay.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    I don't know. Bankruptcy courts typically have a lot of latitude in their rulings. My concern is that I don't know the alternatives being proposed by those who filed to block the bankruptcy. It would seem to me that if the city can't pay and the item in the state constitution says that public pensioners must be kept whole, then they would want to have the state pay up. How would that go over in the rest of Michigan?
    Good question. I expect some would support it while others would not. It would be divisive.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    The State of Michigan isn't obligated to pay for the debts of Detroit, any more than they are obligated to pay for the mortgages of the people of Michigan. They didn't sign the contracts, they are not financially responsible. Try again.
    The city is a creation of the state. They only operate with the blessing of the state. They imposed certain conditions on the city and one of them was cited in the State Constitution.

    Financial responsibility is intrinsic in that relationship.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Heebie Jeebie View Post
    So if it's Unconstitutional to cut pensions because the Michigan Consitution prohibits it, why is it ok to default on Bonds, when the Michigan Constitution prohibits it?

    "Rights and obligations to remain unimpaired.
    All rights acquired under Sections 27 and 28 of Article X of the Constitution of 1908, by
    holders of bonds heretofore issued, and all obligations assumed by the state or any school
    district under these sections, shall remain unimpaired."

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...nstitution.pdf
    The section you quoted refers to bonds issued by the State or by school districts.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Your'e justifying the lowering of the general standards of education and failing to realize it's a huge part of Detroits problem.

    Your'e justifying a man who heads up the Detroit School System who is practically functionally illiterate.

    It's surreal. One indicator after another was ignored for years as that City slid down into bankruptcy and we STILL have people in denial.
    No, I don't know that his public school education is the reason. That is your assumption. He did graduate college so he isn't stupid. He does have some sort of issue in writing. It might be a medical problem instead of an educational one. I don't know. Neither do you. I once had a black woman as an employee who grew up in Cabrini Green which was one of those horrible housing developments in Chicago. She not only lived through it and the horrible education she received in the local Chicago Public School system but she went on not only to graduate from college but to earn masters degree in mechanical engineering. She had no communication problems but she did grow up in an environment similar to the DPS President or even worse. She was a person deserving of respect and admiration. What she did was tough. A lousy public primary and secondary education makes matters worse but not impossible.

    I think you guys are jumping to conclusions. You don't know anything about the man other than that he has a problem forming sentences accurately. That might mean he can't manage or it might not. It is not enough to suppose he has to be incompetent. Heaven knows there were obviously plenty of incompetent folks in city management.

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