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Thread: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    I've never been a fan of the word countless, it is usually used by someone trying to sell me something, but that is neither here nor there. I did see that you posted a link but could only see it when I quoted your post. I still haven't seen any reference to what the racial problems were/are. I see from your article from Europe that the declined had already begun in 1950 and "Detroit's singular reliance on an auto industry that stumbled badly and its long history of racial strife proved a disastrous combination." I read further and the only issues that were referenced was "white flight" and a shift of population to the suburbs. I still don't know what are the strife and racial problems being referenced in either the article or your posts.

    Are you saying that white people moving out of a city is a cause of Detroit's downfall or one of the many symptoms? If so, you seem to be implying that leaving a city to a predominantly minority population will contribute to a cities decline.
    I provided several links. Read them.

    this is also very good... a short synopsis

    Once America's "arsenal of democracy," Detroit over the last fifty years has become the symbol of the American urban crisis. In this reappraisal of racial and economic inequality in modern America, Thomas Sugrue explains how Detroit and many other once prosperous industrial cities have become the sites of persistent racialized poverty. He challenges the conventional wisdom that urban decline is the product of the social programs and racial fissures of the 1960s. Probing beneath the veneer of 1950s prosperity and social consensus, Sugrue traces the rise of a new ghetto, solidified by changes in the urban economy and labor market and by racial and class segregation.

    In this provocative revision of postwar American history, Sugrue finds cities already fiercely divided by race and devastated by the exodus of industries. He focuses on urban neighborhoods, where white working-class homeowners mobilized to prevent integration as blacks tried to move out of the crumbling and overcrowded inner city. Weaving together the history of workplaces, unions, civil rights groups, political organizations, and real estate agencies, Sugrue finds the roots of today's urban poverty in a hidden history of racial violence, discrimination, and deindustrialization that reshaped the American urban landscape after World War II.
    http://www.amazon.com/books/dp/0691121869

    this is also very informative

    http://www.amazon.com/Detroit-Racial...racial+history

    this will also be helpful

    http://www.amazon.com/Redevelopment-...ref=pd_sim_b_3

    a short synopsis

    In the decades following World War II, professional city planners in Detroit made a concerted effort to halt the city's physical and economic decline. Their successes included an award-winning master plan, a number of laudable redevelopment projects, and exemplary planning leadership in the city and the nation. Yet despite their efforts, Detroit was rapidly transforming into a notorious symbol of urban decay. In <i>Redevelopment and Race: Planning a Finer City in Postwar Detroit,</i> June Manning Thomas takes a look at what went wrong, demonstrating how and why government programs were ineffective and even destructive to community needs. </p><p> </p><p> In confronting issues like housing shortages, blight in older areas, and changing economic conditions, Detroit's city planners worked during the urban renewal era without much consideration for low-income and African American residents, and their efforts to stabilize racially mixed neighborhoods faltered as well. Steady declines in industrial prowess and the constant decentralization of white residents counteracted planners' efforts to rebuild the city. Among the issues Thomas discusses in this volume are the harmful impacts of Detroit's highways, the mixed record of urban renewal projects like Lafayette Park, the effects of the 1967 riots on Detroit's ability to plan, the city-building strategies of Coleman Young (the city's first black mayor) and his mayoral successors, and the evolution of Detroit's federally designated Empowerment Zone. Examining the city she knew first as an undergraduate student at Michigan State University and later as a scholar and planner, Thomas ultimately argues for a different approach to traditional planning that places social justice, equity, and community ahead of purely physical and economic objectives. </p><p> </p><p> <i>Redevelopment and Race</i> was<i> </i>originally published in 1997 and was given the Paul Davidoff Award from the Association of Collegiate Schools of Planning in 1999. Students and teachers of urban planning will be grateful for this re-release. A new postscript offers insights into changes since 1997
    Last edited by haymarket; 07-22-13 at 12:47 PM.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    A most excellent question. I will never ever understand why libertarians and conservatives will bend over backwards and do all sorts of mental gymnastics just to screw the average worker when the choice is between corporate interests and the people.
    How convenient. You tie your political party to handing things out to the "average public worker", and then anyone who politically oppose how that party gets the money to redistribute in the first place, or the other things it does once in power, or how it goes about taxing, etc., is "against the average public worker". You're so transparent. What's worse, that you then slap on this false choice that if someone does rightfully oppose democratic expansion of government power, eroding individual freedom, taxing to fund their political party.....that Necessarily this means they are in SUPPORT of "corporate interests". How many ways can you be misleading in one simple post? Just so you know, it's OK to oppose both democratic party abuse of government, AND corporate abuse of government. omg I jus blew ur mind.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    It appears that though the Constitution states the pension shall be fully funded each year, it hasn't done a good of enforcing it. Not diminishing the pensions may not limit taxes though. Tax law changes all the time, it's doubtful the legislators that wrote those constitutional clauses didn't think that tax law would ever change. Just because you fully fund a pension, doesn't mean that retirees won't pay taxes.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Yeah - its pathetic isn't it. But it is the choice just the same in the minds of the right wing.
    What is that supposed to mean? The issue doesn't even involve business.


    I'm not even sure how you can use corporate welfare against republicans when democrats support it as well. How is this red herring going, btw?
    Last edited by Henrin; 07-22-13 at 12:48 PM.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    How convenient. You tie your political party to handing things out to the "average public worker", and then anyone who politically oppose how that party gets the money to redistribute in the first place, or the other things it does once in power, or how it goes about taxing, etc., is "against the average public worker". You're so transparent. What's worse, that you then slap on this false choice that if someone does rightfully oppose democratic expansion of government power, eroding individual freedom, taxing to fund their political party.....that Necessarily this means they are in SUPPORT of "corporate interests". How many ways can you be misleading in one simple post? Just so you know, it's OK to oppose both democratic party abuse of government, AND corporate abuse of government. omg I jus blew ur mind.
    If libertarians and right wingers take positions to screw the average worker - that is on them - not me. I just let the chips fall as they may.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    What is that supposed to mean? The issue doesn't even involve business.


    I'm not even sure how you can use corporate welfare against republicans when democrats support it as well. How is this red herring going, btw?
    I was referring to posters on this topic taking the position that bondholders and banks should come before pensioners.

    that is NOT a red herring. It is reality.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    It appears that though the Constitution states the pension shall be fully funded each year, it hasn't done a good of enforcing it. Not diminishing the pensions may not limit taxes though. Tax law changes all the time, it's doubtful the legislators that wrote those constitutional clauses didn't think that tax law would ever change. Just because you fully fund a pension, doesn't mean that retirees won't pay taxes.
    Could you please quote from the Michigan Constitution where it says what you claim it says?
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    then by acknowledging you ARE familiar with that provision of the state's
    constitution, you should then also recognize the state judge had a compelling reason to rule as she did
    so why the reich wing outrage over her obviously appropriate determination of fact
    or is it that your side would simply prefer to **** on the facts when they intrude on your ideology?

    "Reich wing " outrage ? Thats one of the more oustanding and ignorant things I've seen you write.

    Right now given the State of Detroit and other similar Cities I think the default position on the issue shouldn't be the position of people like you.

    You DO want to see Detroit back on its feet again don't you ?

    Well then you could be of some use as those in charge of sifting through this mess would, I'm sure be happy to have a reminder of basically what NOT to do.

    They could ask you your opinion and then know when to take that hairpin turn back to reallity.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Your posts keep changing and now include links. On this post, have you actually read the books you suggest or are you just suggesting them?

    No doubts that Detroit has had racial tensions and even violence, but to continue to blame the steep decline of Detroit on racial problems after so many years of mismanagement is giving all those politicians a free pass--the ones who were jailed, the ones now jailed and the many that should be jailed.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    Your posts keep changing and now include links. On this post, have you actually read the books you suggest or are you just suggesting them?

    No doubts that Detroit has had racial tensions and even violence, but to continue to blame the steep decline of Detroit on racial problems after so many years of mismanagement is giving all those politicians a free pass--the ones who were jailed, the ones now jailed and the many that should be jailed.
    Nobody is giving any corrupt politicians a free pass simply by acknowledging the reality of the role race has played in Detroit and Michigan and the problems that have stemmed from it. And the reality is well documented in the links I provided for you.

    I have read the Sugrue book in full. Others I have used in part as references for data and local history. The Thomas book was sent to our office in Lansing and looks outstanding but I have not had the chance to fully read it. But it looks really good based on a casual looking through it. I think it has much of what you requested.
    Last edited by haymarket; 07-22-13 at 01:05 PM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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