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Thread: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Explain to me how putting obligations on the people in a constitution is a good thing. Please explain to me how obligating the people to pay for workers that are retired can possibly be seen as anything short of corruption. Go ahead, please. I'll wait.
    of all the creditors owed by the city of detroit, which should stand in line to receive what is owed them before the workers who spent their careers earning a retirement which was committed to them for their decades of service?
    i'll wait for your answer
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    it's always a good thing for the state to put its citizens first
    which illustrates the difference of the beliefs of democrats and republicans
    republicans will use government authority to provide corporate interests with imbalanced advantages
    in this instance, paying investors before the payment of retirement benefits to those who actually exerted while on the job.
    Both republicans and democrats have corporatist tendencies and both love corporate welfare. The kool-aid is spiked, be careful. As for this, it's union freebies at the taxpayers expense.

    fortunately, the state anticipated this inclination and mandated in its constitution that no body can dissipate the pension claim of a pensioner
    No, they knew that people would fight the idea of pensions forever and made sure to shut them up. It's really too bad the idea was always stupid and it didn't matter one bit in the end that they protected them by their Constitution.

    so, when the assets are apportioned based on the claims of the claimants in bankruptcy, the pensioners will be first in line
    if the money exists to pay any creditor, the pensioners will be first in line to receive it
    NOT bond holders
    obvious why the wingers hate that
    Obviously, I hate paying for people when they are NOT working and not providing me a thing in return for it.
    Last edited by Henrin; 07-22-13 at 12:15 PM.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    of all the creditors owed by the city of detroit, which should stand in line to receive what is owed them before the workers who spent their careers earning a retirement which was committed to them for their decades of service?
    i'll wait for your answer
    That does nothing to answer my question. How is putting obligations on the people in a constitution a good thing? I could care less about the promises made to workers of the state. Really, I could care less. The city is broke, so such promises are moot.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    When liberals are in charge dumb things happen. Like pensions relying on taxation being part of the constitution.
    Hate to rain down upon your ideological rant with actual facts but the reality says that in 1962 when Michigan held its Constitutional Convention it was pretty much controlled by Republicans in the person of George Romney who acted as a liason of sorts between business/manufacturing interest and the Republican party interests. Efforts to get such liberal things in as a graduated state income tax were soundly defeated as republicans and conservatives controlled the process.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Romney

    Based on his fame and accomplishments in a state where automobile making was a central topic of conversation, Romney was seen as a natural to enter politics.[104] He first became directly involved in politics in 1959, when he was a key force in the petition drive calling for a constitutional convention to rewrite the Michigan Constitution.[30][96] Romney's sales skills made Citizens for Michigan one of the most effective organizations among those calling for the convention.[104][109] Previously unaffiliated politically, Romney declared himself a member of the Republican Party and gained election to the convention.[104] By early 1960, many in Michigan's somewhat moribund Republican Party were touting Romney as a possible candidate for governor, U.S. senator, or even U.S. vice president.[35][49] Romney briefly considered a run in the 1960 Senate election,[49] but instead became a vice president of the constitutional convention that revised the Michigan constitution during 1961 and 1962.[110][111]
    http://bentley.umich.edu/research/gu...tions.php#1961

    To further show how conservatives and republicans were in charge of the convention, read this

    http://domemagazine.com/features/f20410

    A good constitution should stand the test of time, but the constitution adopted by voters in 1963 — Michigan’s fourth — failed in critical areas. Two of the biggest were in the areas of apportioning the Senate and in deciding how all legislative districts would be reapportioned every decade following new census figures.

    For example, the new constitution set forth a complicated plan to overcount rural voters and undercount urban voters in apportioning the state Senate: an 80-20 split between population and land. That effort didn’t survive 15 months before the U.S. Supreme Court invalidated the whole scheme.

    The U.S. Supreme Court’s ruling in Reynolds v. Sims in June 1964 threw the upcoming Michigan elections into chaos and left election officials shell-shocked. Less than five months before the November elections, district lines had to be redrawn and candidates had to figure out their new districts.

    The state Supreme Court, which a few weeks earlier had approved an apportionment based on undercounting urban voters, reversed gears: on June 22, 1964, it approved the Democratic redistricting plan (Austin-Kleiner) based entirely on population.
    So much for the lie that liberals were in control of writing that Constitution for Michigan.
    Last edited by haymarket; 07-22-13 at 12:22 PM.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman909 View Post
    And yet, union rank and file just kept on electing the same union leadership that helped put Detroit into the crapper, and let them donate union dues to liberal causes and candidates who continually perpetuated this disaster. And they have the gonads to fight the bankruptcy.
    Well yeah, just like when they helped Obamacare and now it's going to sting them they want out. They always want a "get out of jail free" card when poor policy fails.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    You have referenced racial problems a number of times. What would those problems be and in what way are they ingrained?
    There are countless book written about it, countless studies written about it. In short, Detroit has been one of the most racially divided communities in the nation for a very long time. This goes back a full century after the great southern migration to the north and midwest. It proved to be one of the great factors in the exodus of whites from the city in the Fifties and Sixties which caused the decline in population and the decline in tax collections.

    http://www.neurope.eu/news/wire/detr...-citys-decline

    The "Arsenal of Democracy" that supplied the Allied victory of World War II and evolved into the "Motor City" fell into a six-decade downward spiral of job losses, shrinking population and a plummeting tax base. Detroit's singular reliance on an auto industry that stumbled badly and its long history of racial strife proved a disastrous combination.

    "Most Midwest cities had white flight and segregation. But Detroit had it more intensely. Most cities had deindustrialization. Detroit had it more intensely," said Kevin Boyle, a history professor at Northwestern University who has written extensively about his hometown.
    I would advise people who want documented historical detail to read Professor Boyle's works.

    Racial strife also infected the city. The migration of blacks into Detroit, which helped power its economic rise, was followed by an exodus of white residents for the suburbs. In the last decade alone — from 2000 to 2010 — Detroit lost about a quarter-million residents. The city's current population of roughly 700,000 is about 83 percent black.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Race_Riot_(1943)

    http://www.67riots.rutgers.edu/d_index.htm
    Last edited by haymarket; 07-22-13 at 12:29 PM.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    of all the creditors owed by the city of detroit, which should stand in line to receive what is owed them before the workers who spent their careers earning a retirement which was committed to them for their decades of service?
    i'll wait for your answer
    The creditors you are referring to are the bond holders. Whenever a city needs money for a construction project or something, they sell bonds. These bonds are bought by many different sources, most of which wind up being part of someone's IRA or 401k. It is incredibly inaccurate and disingenuous to refer to this as "corporate interests". Without bond holders the city could not function because municipal bonds provide the exclusive means that the city has used to finance itself.

    There is going to have to be shared sacrifice here. I just read that Detroit has annual revenues of about $1.1 billion and has been running a $300+ million dollar deficit and they're losing about $100 million in revenue every year due to population loss. Looks to me like their budget needs some drastic trimming. This SHOULD be the starting point.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Haymarket, exactly where did I say republicans can't be liberals? For that matter, where did I say democrats or republicans in the post you quoted?

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    yet another extreme perspectivea rant which tells us he would similarly object to federal bankruptcy rules which provides wage earners a super-priority how dare the government look after the common citizen when it could instead be using its authority to vest corporations with more advantages
    I read your response as the extreme position. justabubba, democrat political machines like that have been around for 50++ years. It's in high school text books, it's not extreme, it's routine. And Detroit has been failing for decades. The common citizen is in the private market and doesn't have these taxpayer paid-for advantages, so stop with the common citizen B.S. You dont' want common, you want political favors, you vote in the guys that give you the better pension and protection. That's a travesty. That politicians have used government power to redistribute wealth to their constituents in the public sector, people who depend on those parties for their good jobs and benefits, of course is a terrible conflict of interest.

    I would point out that it ultimately will lead to failure, but I think that's pretty obvious around the world, throughout history, and with this example in the OP. Extreme? Nonsense.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    they are STATE citizens
    the state constitution does not just protect the interests of detroit residents
    Where I live there are State employees and County employees. They have separate pension plans so what applies to a State pensioner is not necessarily what applies to a County pensioner. If Michigan treats them all the same then it looks like it will suck to live there as you will now pay off the pensions promised by a city that cannot run itself correctly.
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