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Thread: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

  1. #181
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    [b]Sorry, I'm the type of person who believes in honoring commitments.
    I understand and I'm right there with you, but at the same time it's not MY responsibility to honor someone else's promise. I believe that the people who cut the deals should make good on them, or they should go to jail. But, these bailouts have to stop. If we keep bailing people out, then where's the lesson learned? There isn't one and the same mistakes will be repeated over and over again.

    And I'm not a person who would be able to tell a 65, 75, 85 yr old man or woman that the pension they've been surviving on is now going to disappear. Call it whatever you want, it is what it is.
    What about a 38 y/o? Or a 45 y/o? They can get their asses out there and go back to work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  2. #182
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Using your analogy the government is doing just that to people who worked for a company rather than the government. Those people for the most part have their 401Ks as their pension plan. The government, by holding down interest rates on bonds and CDs in order to be able to pay for the huge debt, have in effect cut the earnings retirees can get on their savings.

    Why is there no concern for people who did not work for government?
    You misunderstand my original point which was, why should the state's constitution specifically protect the pensions of public sector workers and not those in the private sector and if it does, isn't that provision of the state's constitution unconstitional under the US constitution.

    I've also indicated that in my view any retiree who is currently collecting a pension should continue to do so but those who have not secured vested interest in that pension plan should be subject to the same returns from bankruptcy that any other "creditor" of the city.

    You may not like the answer, but a city is an entity of the state and if an entity of the state has not handled its fiduciary duties legally and ethically - by that I mean they have not fully funded the pension commitments they have on an ongoing basis - then the state becomes responsible for that negligence and perhaps the state should have taken over the operations of the city of Detroit much sooner.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I didn't blame the public sector workers. They're just doing a job. I'll never fault a man for going to work; no matter who he works for.
    On this point we can find common ground.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I understand and I'm right there with you, but at the same time it's not MY responsibility to honor someone else's promise. I believe that the people who cut the deals should make good on them, or they should go to jail. But, these bailouts have to stop. If we keep bailing people out, then where's the lesson learned? There isn't one and the same mistakes will be repeated over and over again.



    What about a 38 y/o? Or a 45 y/o? They can get their asses out there and go back to work.
    On your first point, I agree - some people should go to jail if they did not legally and ethically handle their fiduciary duty and pay into the secured pension fund the required payments yearly to ensure the fund was solvent and not subject to bankruptcy proceedings. If these payments weren't made, and the city councillors/mayor etc. spent the money on other more politically advantageous things, toss them all in jail and set an example.

    On your second point, you agree with me - I've said that anyone who is still working and not vested in the pension plan should not be made whole as it relates to what their pension payment would be if they got to retire. That said, I do believe that those 38yr olds and 45 yr olds should be entitled to the monies they were legally required to contribute to the pension plan from each paycheck and each year - they are not entitled to matching funds, they never would have got them if they'd quit or been fired before retiring, but they are entitled, similar to monies deposited in a bank, to the money they were forced to contribute.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  5. #185
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    On your first point, I agree - some people should go to jail if they did not legally and ethically handle their fiduciary duty and pay into the secured pension fund the required payments yearly to ensure the fund was solvent and not subject to bankruptcy proceedings. If these payments weren't made, and the city councillors/mayor etc. spent the money on other more politically advantageous things, toss them all in jail and set an example.

    On your second point, you agree with me - I've said that anyone who is still working and not vested in the pension plan should not be made whole as it relates to what their pension payment would be if they got to retire. That said, I do believe that those 38yr olds and 45 yr olds should be entitled to the monies they were legally required to contribute to the pension plan from each paycheck and each year - they are not entitled to matching funds, they never would have got them if they'd quit or been fired before retiring, but they are entitled, similar to monies deposited in a bank, to the money they were forced to contribute.
    I just don't believe it should come out of my pocket, is all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  6. #186
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I just don't believe it should come out of my pocket, is all.
    I agree with you - being in Louisiana, you shouldn't have any skin in this debacle. But the people of Michigan, not just those in Detroit, are on the hook, in my view, because they elected a state government that has some control over cities within the state and should have, long ago, taken over operation of Detroit and set it on the right path. The corruption in the city's government has been known for at least a decade if not more. The people of Michigan elected the state government that didn't act, and now they have to suffer the consequences.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I can't argue with the points you've presented, but it doesn't change how I feel about retired people who are living on a pension they earned legally and fully. The problem lies with a government that didn't fully fund their obligations under the plan they approved and deferred contributions until better days that never came.

    I don't know what part of the $18 billion debt Detroit has that is pension related or even if the pension shortfalls are included in that number. Those currently receiving a pension, however, would be my first priority in any bankruptcy settlement going forward.
    Putting that $18 billion of Detroit debt in some perspective, that comes to about $1,800 from each Michigan resident to settle it up, so each family of 4, in the state, could simply pony up $7,200 to bail out Detroit (this time).
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 07-20-13 at 08:15 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I agree with you - being in Louisiana, you shouldn't have any skin in this debacle. But the people of Michigan, not just those in Detroit, are on the hook, in my view, because they elected a state government that has some control over cities within the state and should have, long ago, taken over operation of Detroit and set it on the right path. The corruption in the city's government has been known for at least a decade if not more. The people of Michigan elected the state government that didn't act, and now they have to suffer the consequences.
    If Federal money is used to back up these promises, then it's coming out of my pocket.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  9. #189
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    You just don't get it. There is no money to pay them. Money doesn't grow on trees. There simply isn't any. It doesn't matter how much you wish there was, there just isn't.
    But But BUT WHAT ABOUT THE CHILLLLDRUNN!!!!!

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    But But BUT WHAT ABOUT THE CHILLLLDRUNN!!!!!
    They might fetch $50 to $100 each at auction.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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