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Thread: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

  1. #161
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    I will not cry for them. They made that choice, got to retire with more money and at an earlier age than they would have with SS. As with any choice it involves risk/reward analysis - simply because they missed the mark on risk does not entitle them to a reward. Many other folks have worked their entire lives only to have circumstances make them dependent on the dole. I am sick and tired of gov't employees being treated as super citizens, they are supposed to be our public servants not our masters.
    I appreciate what you're saying and I'm not in favor of big government benefit packages that bankrupt municipalities, but I have to say that I would never be in favor of taking away the vested pensions that retirees are currently receiving. These people made the commitment and held up their part of the bargain and now, in old age, they are reliant upon that pension income. I do, however, feel less concerned about those who are still working and not near retirement - their own personal payments into any plan, plus interest, should be theirs, however any government subsidy or matching funds that were expected or that are now unfunded liabilities of the government should not be guaranteed.

    I look at people who are now retired as people who have, in effect, purchased an annuity and now they are collecting on that annuity. You can't yank that away from them because they've satisfied their end of the contract.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I would be happy to look at your figures documenting this.
    I'd have to research it, should figures be required, but I do agree that even here in Canada we had public unions bargain for a number of benefit "perk" in lieu of income increases over the years long ago but in recent years those benefits have remained as the public unions have caught up and often surpassed the private sector in wages too, giving them the best of both worlds. It's why municipalities and states are having such a hard time with public sector compensation in a shrinking tax base.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I do not suggest. I states quite clearly that the two major factors were economic and racial. I also stated quite clearly that the city fathers did indeed make some choices that contributed to the demise of the city. But again, the two main factors have been detailed and evidence supplied.
    you may have excessively diminished their responsibility for this economic dilemma
    when public officials have authority for determining what is to be purchased and paid for - and this includes the purchased of labor - they then become responsible when they buy more than they have money to pay for
    just like adults in a family who incur more debts than their income allows them to pay

    yes, the demise of the American auto industry was a factor beyond their control
    and the city fathers had little ability to affect racism and its effects
    but they certainly had the fiduciary responsibility to make sure the city had enough money before they permitted the city to incur debt obligations
    and they failed in those responsibilities
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I appreciate what you're saying and I'm not in favor of big government benefit packages that bankrupt municipalities, but I have to say that I would never be in favor of taking away the vested pensions that retirees are currently receiving. These people made the commitment and held up their part of the bargain and now, in old age, they are reliant upon that pension income. I do, however, feel less concerned about those who are still working and not near retirement - their own personal payments into any plan, plus interest, should be theirs, however any government subsidy or matching funds that were expected or that are now unfunded liabilities of the government should not be guaranteed.

    I look at people who are now retired as people who have, in effect, purchased an annuity and now they are collecting on that annuity. You can't yank that away from them because they've satisfied their end of the contract.
    The rub, of course, is that then the ever dwindling number of Detroit taxpayers must pay, not only for their current city services, but double that, in order to pay for those that "screwed up" long before them, thus increasing the rate of exodus from that city. In order to recover, Detriot must keep its taxation rates competittive with (or below) those of surrounding areas, to both keep its current residents/businesses and to attract new ones.

    What is likley to occur is that these big, blue, disasterously mismanaged cities, that have colluded with public worker unions for decades, will get "bailed out" by mooching off of other taxpayers that were not responsible, thus rewarding failure and setting a terrible precedent that it is OK to do just as Detriot did - live for today and let others pay back that debt as they collect their "legally obtained", yet unfunded, cushy lifetime pensions.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I do not suggest. I states quite clearly that the two major factors were economic and racial. I also stated quite clearly that the city fathers did indeed make some choices that contributed to the demise of the city. But again, the two main factors have been detailed and evidence supplied.
    Racial eh? Everytime the Democrats fail, it's because of whitey hatin' on the black man. Right?

    This is a prime example of what I'm talking about when I say that racism will never go away, because the Libbos won't let it go away.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    you may have excessively diminished their responsibility for this economic dilemma
    when public officials have authority for determining what is to be purchased and paid for - and this includes the purchased of labor - they then become responsible when they buy more than they have money to pay for
    just like adults in a family who incur more debts than their income allows them to pay

    yes, the demise of the American auto industry was a factor beyond their control
    and the city fathers had little ability to affect racism and its effects
    but they certainly had the fiduciary responsibility to make sure the city had enough money before they permitted the city to incur debt obligations
    and they failed in those responsibilities
    I certainly cannot quarrel with you on that. I do agree that the city had an obligation NOT to purchase any more labor than was necessary. And I would certainly fault the city for NOT downsizing in certain departments over the fifty year period when the population decreased by some 60%.

    I would be glad to examine any listing of such figures in various departments.

    As to overpaying for labor, there is evidence of that especially in administrative and political positions. Sadly,this expenditure of money was often done at the expense of the common worker who actually delivered the services. This would include the cop on the beat, the garbage collector on the truck, or the bus driver. I would strongly join you or anyone else in condemning such waste.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I appreciate what you're saying and I'm not in favor of big government benefit packages that bankrupt municipalities, but I have to say that I would never be in favor of taking away the vested pensions that retirees are currently receiving. These people made the commitment and held up their part of the bargain and now, in old age, they are reliant upon that pension income. I do, however, feel less concerned about those who are still working and not near retirement - their own personal payments into any plan, plus interest, should be theirs, however any government subsidy or matching funds that were expected or that are now unfunded liabilities of the government should not be guaranteed.

    I look at people who are now retired as people who have, in effect, purchased an annuity and now they are collecting on that annuity. You can't yank that away from them because they've satisfied their end of the contract.
    Someone is going to lose out; the retirees, or the tax payers. Why should the tax payers get screwed for someone else's mistake, just so some guy can sit on his ass and keep collecting his pension. Oh, and don't get me started on lazy ass municipal workers, that may not have necessarily earned it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I appreciate what you're saying and I'm not in favor of big government benefit packages that bankrupt municipalities, but I have to say that I would never be in favor of taking away the vested pensions that retirees are currently receiving. These people made the commitment and held up their part of the bargain and now, in old age, they are reliant upon that pension income. I do, however, feel less concerned about those who are still working and not near retirement - their own personal payments into any plan, plus interest, should be theirs, however any government subsidy or matching funds that were expected or that are now unfunded liabilities of the government should not be guaranteed.

    I look at people who are now retired as people who have, in effect, purchased an annuity and now they are collecting on that annuity. You can't yank that away from them because they've satisfied their end of the contract.
    Using your analogy the government is doing just that to people who worked for a company rather than the government. Those people for the most part have their 401Ks as their pension plan. The government, by holding down interest rates on bonds and CDs in order to be able to pay for the huge debt, have in effect cut the earnings retirees can get on their savings.

    Why is there no concern for people who did not work for government?

  9. #169
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    My argument wasn't so much what the actual pension benefits were but how they are treated legally - public sector pensions seem to be protected, and from what you post, private sector pensions were or are not. It doesn't seem constitutional that you could have two groups of employees treated differently under the law. I'm not advocating at all a race to the bottom, just seeking clarification.
    I'll say it again. Private pension are protected under federal law. Specifically under The Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974. This federal law does not apply to public pensions. It is up to the states to write in laws to protect its own public pensions.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Someone is going to lose out; the retirees, or the tax payers. Why should the tax payers get screwed for someone else's mistake, just so some guy can sit on his ass and keep collecting his pension. Oh, and don't get me started on lazy ass municipal workers, that may not have necessarily earned it.
    Assuming the retiree pays taxes, they will also contribute to cleaning up the mess that they too did not cause. It's not really an "us" against "them" argument since both parties are not at fault and will pay for someone else's mess.
    Last edited by rabbitcaebannog; 07-20-13 at 07:18 PM.

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