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Thread: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

  1. #141
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    No, I was asking the author of the OP if he felt that government pensions should have a higher level of protection under bankruptcy laws than private sector pensions?
    Well it only does for those who have it in their state constitution whereas private pensions do have protection under a government agency.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    How are retired gov't workers any more worthy of protection than any other citizens/workers who chose to invest in (by buying bonds) or did work for/supplied items to the city gov't on credit? What of a private worker that holds Detroit bonds in their personal retirement fund?
    I don't think anyone is more "worthy" however, those government pensions in that state is the main source of their retirement saying they don't get social security.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    I don't think anyone is more "worthy" however, those government pensions in that state is the main source of their retirement saying they don't get social security.
    I will not cry for them. They made that choice, got to retire with more money and at an earlier age than they would have with SS. As with any choice it involves risk/reward analysis - simply because they missed the mark on risk does not entitle them to a reward. Many other folks have worked their entire lives only to have circumstances make them dependent on the dole. I am sick and tired of gov't employees being treated as super citizens, they are supposed to be our public servants not our masters.
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  4. #144
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    I will not cry for them. They made that choice, got to retire with more money and at an earlier age than they would have with SS. As with any choice it involves risk/reward analysis - simply because they missed the mark on risk does not entitle them to a reward. Many other folks have worked their entire lives only to have circumstances make them dependent on the dole. I am sick and tired of gov't employees being treated as super citizens, they are supposed to be our public servants not our masters.
    No, there was no "choice". They don't get to chose if they can collect off of social security or a pension. That decision was made for them when they got that government job. So, now you're telling me that we all should risk losing our retirement (whether pension or SS) because it is a risk? That is not how the system was set up. It may be heading that way but it doesn't make it right nor does it make it right for people to champion these type policies. People should feel some kind of security heading toward retirement and not have the rug pulled out from under their feet no matter what job they work.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    No, there was no "choice". They don't get to chose if they can collect off of social security or a pension. That decision was made for them when they got that government job. So, now you're telling me that we all should risk losing our retirement (whether pension or SS) because it is a risk? That is not how the system was set up. It may be heading that way but it doesn't make it right nor does it make it right for people to champion these type policies. People should feel some kind of security heading toward retirement and not have the rug pulled out from under their feet no matter what job they work.
    Are you kidding me? Someone put a gun to their head an forced them to work for Detriot? Where they drafted or what?

    Of course your pension is at risk, it is based on either a ponzi scheme or invested in some bond or stock. Look at Social Security, it is now constantly being pared down yet we have no choice but to "contribute", even if it does not increase our retirement benefit by a single dime. After you have worked 40 quarters (10 years), and have reached your "high three" years of salary, anything more added to your SS account has no affect on your SS benefit. The SS reitrement age is being raised and the COLA adjustment to retirement benefit levels is being reduced. There are now about 9K Detriot workers yet there are 20K Detroit retirees - that happens in a system that has a very early retirement age. Many of these Detriot retirees have drawn more retirement before age 65 than most will draw from SS in their lifetimes assuming that they even live until age 65.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    I said Detroit has been Solid Blue since the 60's... and somehow that doesn't make sense to you?..even though we both know i'm factually correct, we can move on .
    As I have demonstrated with facts and figures, Detroit started its slide during the 1950's under two Republican mayors. Any recitation of the facts without that reality is simply playing ostrich.



    is it your premise that the city government of Detroit has played no part in it's horrific decline?.. is that what you are trying to say here?
    Of course government played a role. I never said otherwise. But the real major factors were economic and racial. And that is well established and I provided evidence accordingly.




    now, 50+ years later, after the decline began under republican mayors ...where are we?....
    I can understand why you would feel the need to defend your party and their policies.. i mean, you're a paid Democrat after all.... but i'm kind a awestruck as to how you can sit here and argues the policies put forth by the Detroit Democrats have nothing to do with it's decline.
    Which I did not do. I simply stated that the major factors were economic and racial.

    was power usurped by some unseen entity during the last 50 years?.
    .

    Not at all. The power was very much seen. It was economic and it was racial. City government had to react to both those factors. Some decisions were made poorly - no doubt about it. But what
    correct" decisions could have been made to overcome the huge factors of economic desertion of the city combined with racial stress? Tell me what decisions the city government could have made which would have turned the decline around. Like Ross Perot once said - I am all ears.
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    No other city in Michigan has declared bankruptcy in the past 50 years, or ever, to my knowledge, so it's never been an issue.

    I'm not passing judgement, other than to say that giving protections such as this to civil servants but not to the general population at large seems wrong to me.

    Your claim that civil servants got this protection because they were paid less and it helped people enter the civil service is countered by the fact that many working people don't have employer provided or subsidized pensions and many working people don't have anywhere near the job security that civil servants have and I'd venture that the average civil servant in 2013 takes home a better salary than many if not most of those people working in Michigan, if they're lucky enough to have a job.
    I would be happy to look at your figures documenting this.
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  8. #148
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Are you kidding me? Someone put a gun to their head an forced them to work for Detriot? Where they drafted or what?

    Of course your pension is at risk, it is based on either a ponzi scheme or invested in some bond or stock. Look at Social Security, it is now constantly being pared down yet we have no choice but to "contribute", even if it does not increase our retirement benefit by a single dime. After you have worked 40 quarters (10 years) and have reached your "high three" years of salary anything more added to your SS account has no affect on your SS benefit. The SS reitrement age is being raised and the COLA adjustment to retirement benefit levels is being reduced. There are now about 9K Detriot workers yet there are 20K Detriot retirees - that happens in a system that has a very early retirement age. Many of these Detriot retirees have drawn more retirement before age 65 than most will draw from SS in their lifetimes assuming that they even live until age 65.
    I contribute nearly double what people who contribute to social security contribute so that is really a straw man. If I want full benefits, I can retire at age 66. And, yes pension vary from state to state and RI has to give its 3% COLA to pay 4% fees to its new system. (Yes, it makes no sense and I suppose another moot point). But, the point is that Michigan along with other states have changed their plans but some not really to the good of employee, taxpayer or economy. Many will be good to the benefit of private investors though. But, I digress. As long as the system maintains new employees being under the defined plan, the plan will continue to hold enough funds as long as corruption is not going on. I believe now in Michigan, they just changed the law where people don't have to enter under a defined plan. That of course will have a negative effect on depleting the fund. It will probably be only a matter of time when they will no longer be able to run the define plan because of lack of participants. It has nothing to do with the number of people living or working in Michigan. All off points to the discussion. Again, people should be able to enter into retirement without the rug having to be pulled from them no matter if they are in a pension or social security. It should not be a crap shot. Again, that is not how either system was set up, and it should not be championed.
    Last edited by rabbitcaebannog; 07-20-13 at 04:04 PM.

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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    I contribute nearly double what people who contribute to social security contribute so that is really a straw man. If I want full benefits, I can retire at age 66. And, yes pension vary from state to state and RI has to give its 3% COLA to pay 4% fees to its new system. (Yes, it makes no sense and I suppose another moot point). But, the point is that Michigan along with other states have changed their plans but some not really to the good of employee, taxpayer or economy. Many will be good to the benefit of private investors though. But, I digress. As long as the system maintains new employees being under the defined plan, the plan will continue to hold enough funds as long as corruption is not going on. I believe now in Michigan, they just changed the law where people don't have to enter under a defined plan. That of course will have a negative effect on depleting the fund. It will probably be only a matter of time when they will no longer be able to run the define plan because of lack of participants. It has nothing to do with the number of people living or working in Michigan. All off points to the discussion. Again, people should be able to enter into retirement without the rug having to be pulled from them no matter if they are in a pension or social security. It should not be a crap shot. Again, that is not how either system was set up, and it should not be championed.
    You are missing a VERY critical point in your gov't pension system analysis. 100% of that pension "contribution" is supplied by the taxpayers. You may not see it this way but consider this carefully before you "go off". SS retirement requires a contribution of about 15% (half by the employee and half by the employer) while gov't pensions usually require far less (than 7.6%) to be contributed by the employee.

    Even "your" contribution is really just tax money if you work for the gov't: if your salary is $75K/year and you contribute $5K/year to your retirement then that is no different than if you were paid $70K/year and the taxpayers paid $5K/year to your retirement account for you. That is because anything that you defer from your current pay until retirement is in pre-tax dollars - either way you would still gross $70K/year.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 07-20-13 at 04:21 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  10. #150
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    re: Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You are missing a VERY critical point in your gov't pension system analysis. 100% of that pension "contribution" is supplied by the taxpayers. You may not see it this way but consider this carefully before you "go off". SS retirement requires a contribution of about 15% (half by the employee and half by the employer) while gov't pensions usually require far less (than 7.6%) to be contributed by the employee.

    Even "your" contribution is really just tax money if you work for the gov't: if your salary is $75K/year and you contribute $5K/year to your retirement then that is no different than if you were paid $70K/year and the taxpayers paid $5K/year to your retirement account for you. That is because anything that you defer from your current pay until retirement is in pre-tax dollars - either way you would still gross $70K/year.
    You are incorrect. The majority of pension are paid through the employee and the investment return, and not by the taxpayer. As a matter of fact, contribution plans may be more expensive to the taxpayer than defined plans.

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