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Thread: Driving somewhere? There's a gov't record of that

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    Re: Driving somewhere? There's a gov't record of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Anagram View Post
    If the government wants to catch lawbreakers by gathering public information I think they should be allowed to. I don't consider it a bizarre argument at all about why this is acceptable but gathering private information would not be.
    They can catch lawbreakers without gathering information about all their citizens or spying on us. I don't see why everything is permissible because "it might catch lawbreakers", sorry. Assuming of course they are doing whatever they want in the affairs of things happening in the public because apparently I'm supposed to consider it an important distinction..
    Last edited by Henrin; 07-18-13 at 10:54 PM.

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    Re: Driving somewhere? There's a gov't record of that

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Do it for the children, the other most used reason for giving in. The data does not support a massive benefit. It shows that by collection gazillions of bits of data, we've apprehended virtually a handful of people. And you're right, trusting the government is difficult and should be.
    Giving in to what? Driving in public? I'm not grasping what you guys are protesting here. We all drive our vehicles in public. No matter if its a cop entering your license plate into a system or a camera taking a picture of it, it still happens. So you, with the lean of conservative, would rather we spend more money on more cops to do this duty rather than have a camera do it? It's the most fiscally responsible way to do what is going to be done anyway.
    Also, that data not supporting a massive benefit would definitely be worth it if it were YOUR child bro. I would bet my life on it that if your child was abducted you wouldn't be willing to sacrifice he/she just so a few paranoid looney's felt good about driving around with their picture taken (IN PUBLIC!!).
    As I said earlier, there is a massive difference between the gov't compiling and storing private data like financial records, phone calls, etc as opposed to taking a picture of something you do in public. If you don't want a picture taken of what you're doing, do it in your own home or don't do it at all.
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    Re: Driving somewhere? There's a gov't record of that

    I, for one, have absolutely no qualms about our government's quest for omniscience. They're just so benevolent and honorable in everything they do, why ever should we worry?

    "Absolute power corrupts absolutely brings absolute trustworthiness."

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    Re: Driving somewhere? There's a gov't record of that

    Quote Originally Posted by ChunkySalsa View Post
    I, for one, have absolutely no qualms about our government's quest for omniscience. They're just so benevolent and honorable in everything they do, why ever should we worry?

    "Absolute power corrupts absolutely brings absolute trustworthiness."
    Yes its obviously true that there is a great deal of information that the government shouldn't have. Nobody here is arguing that the government should be able to access any information they want. It obviously cannot be trusted with everything. I think its just as obvious that the government shouldn't be omni-ignorant either. I happen to think this falls under the allowable category.
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    Re: Driving somewhere? There's a gov't record of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Anagram View Post
    Yes its obviously true that there is a great deal of information that the government shouldn't have. Nobody here is arguing that the government should be able to access any information they want. It obviously cannot be trusted with everything. I think its just as obvious that the government shouldn't be omni-ignorant either. I happen to think this falls under the allowable category.
    The government has all it needs to solve crime without knowing anything that I'm doing day to day. It is best that the government is ignorant of what I'm doing at all times. When it's found I committed a crime they can investigate the crime like usual without any material they gained before such point.

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    Re: Driving somewhere? There's a gov't record of that

    Reading more about it I will say that a few things about this does have me concerned. At least in Minneapolis these records are available to be disclosed to anyone asking for them. Apparently the Minnesota Star Tribune was able to find out the Mayor was tracked 41 times in the past year as well as that a reporter was tracked 7 times. There seems to be lots of potential for trouble there.

    Also apparently any individual police officer can just enter a license plate number of anyone they want and get the whole history. I had figured it would only pop up with the information if the car was on some sort of hot list. They shouldn't be able to just look up information from supposedly innocent people.

    I still don't disapprove of this program as a whole, but there should be some safeguards.
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    Re: Driving somewhere? There's a gov't record of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Again, why are people arguing that it's fine for the government to spy and gather information on American citizens in public areas?
    Arguing that it is legal is not necessarily the same as arguing that it is harmless or beneficial.

    Unless a state or municipal government outlaws it, it's legal. If you are in public, and you pass somewhere with a camera, it's legal.


    Why is the exception of privacy actually important when talking about government power?
    It's "expectation." If you are in public, your actions are also public, and thus you have no basis to assume your actions are private. Same thing if you are sitting on your porch smoking a blunt, or standing at your window with the blinds up and strangling your spouse. Your actions are in plain sight.

    I.e. governments do have the legal right to stick a camera on a bridge, and record license plates of anyone who drives across the bridge.


    How is the government spying on American citizens ever justifiable?
    Domestic "spying" is fully justifiable, under selected circumstances -- notably law enforcement.

    If the task involves tapping phones or accessing computers, the government will need a warrant. If it involves following someone as they drive around, no warrant is required. Same for a camera on a bridge.

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    Re: Driving somewhere? There's a gov't record of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    It's "expectation." If you are in public, your actions are also public, and thus you have no basis to assume your actions are private. Same thing if you are sitting on your porch smoking a blunt, or standing at your window with the blinds up and strangling your spouse. Your actions are in plain sight.
    I don't expect my actions are private, nor do I expect no one will "see" my actions, but that simply the government will not be gathering and storing information about me through the use of means such as cameras, photo equipment or any other technology that can be used to gather information. Since you brought up the porch blunt example, yes, I have a problem with the government watching me on property or simply my property looking for violations of the law, but that is different subject for another day that involves different laws.

    I.e. governments do have the legal right to stick a camera on a bridge, and record license plates of anyone who drives across the bridge.
    They know practice rights? Geez..it's getting worse than I thought.


    Domestic "spying" is fully justifiable, under selected circumstances -- notably law enforcement.
    How? What is the legal argument besides it's happening in the public? I don't see how anyone can find "it's public" a very good argument.

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    Re: Driving somewhere? There's a gov't record of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    What "data" are you looking at?
    I posted a thread on this elsewhere, check there.
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    Re: Driving somewhere? There's a gov't record of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Who cares if my car is outside in the public? Why does the government need to be taking pictures of it and then storing that on file??

    It completely disgusts me that people are fine with being spied on if it stops crime.
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