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Thread: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions[W:240]

  1. #61
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    Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Hmm...are you trying to say there are circumstances early in the decision making process which make it difficult to take an action?
    This comparison you're trying to make is a huge fail.

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    Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    I think I support a similar law regarding firearms. You can only buy a gun in the first 20 years of your life. After that, you're no longer allowed to purchase them. After all, 20 years is plenty of time to decide. I know many countries have much more limiting criteria than 20 years. Furthermore, I support legislation which says firearms can only be sold at Bass Pro Shops. Sure, there are only a few of them scattered throughout the country, but how else can we make sure guns are being sold responsibly by people following the law?

    This is my proposal, and I fully expect the pro-life people in this thread to support my reasoning, even if you don't support my idea.
    Are you kidding me? A week is not the same as a year, a product (gun) is not the same as a service (abortion) and naming a specific private business is not the same as defining the qualifications required of any business. Other than those obvious differences it is still a rediculous analogy.
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    Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    If what I've read is true, Texas simply joins 13 other states who have similar 20 week limits on access to abortion, although in a couple of those states, their courts have stopped implementation while the constitutionality of the laws are adjudicated.

    I don't know the medical details related to viability and when it becomes possible to determine if a fetus is developing normally and healthily, etc. but I have to agree with others here who have indicated that 20 weeks should be sufficient time for a woman to make a choice about whether she wants a child or not. Surely, it doesn't take more than 20 weeks to make such a choice.

    Can anyone who opposes this change in the law indicate what medically happens between 20 weeks and the former 24 weeks that makes a woman who wants a child to suddenly decide not to want the child?
    Medically, the mother could develop any number of conditions related to pregnancy that make continuing it more risky than ending it. As the fetus develops, it becomes easier to see defects...some issues might not present until later in gestation, though I'm not sure what would specifically be visible at 24 weeks but not 20. Then again, not all women have ultrasounds at the same time, so perhaps something could be present at 20 weeks but not noticed because the ultrasound is done at 24.

    But the law allows for exceptions when the mother's health is at risk or the fetus is not capable of survival due to defect or disease.
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    Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    If what I've read is true, Texas simply joins 13 other states who have similar 20 week limits on access to abortion, although in a couple of those states, their courts have stopped implementation while the constitutionality of the laws are adjudicated.

    I don't know the medical details related to viability and when it becomes possible to determine if a fetus is developing normally and healthily, etc. but I have to agree with others here who have indicated that 20 weeks should be sufficient time for a woman to make a choice about whether she wants a child or not. Surely, it doesn't take more than 20 weeks to make such a choice.

    Can anyone who opposes this change in the law indicate what medically happens between 20 weeks and the former 24 weeks that makes a woman who wants a child to suddenly decide not want the child?
    I really am not sure but I think that in the UK if you are going by the NHS you will not find out certain things like Down's Syndrome before the 20 week scan. I may be wrong about that but I know my daughter had private scans at around 14 weeks for all her pregnancies and she said by the NHS she would not know if there were problems before 20 weeks. There may still be other things less common which are not caught until the 20 week scan. I think the NHS provides one at about 3 months and one at 20 weeks.

    From the point of view of the mother of course there could be many things. One of them might be deciding to have a termination because treatment for, for instance cancer might harm the baby.
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    Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    This comparison you're trying to make is a huge fail.
    I added on after I saw you added on. Here's my post again:

    Hmm...are you trying to say there are circumstances early in the decision making process which make it difficult to take an action?

    And I am glad you understand what I'm trying to do. While the circumstances surrounding the situations are obviously different, perhaps it can provide some insight to why many in the pro-choice crowd do not care for much of the reasoning of the pro-life crowd in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Are you kidding me?
    Yes, well kind of. I am still trying to make a point.

    A week is not the same as a year
    That is true, a year is a much longer time. So then would you say I should shorten it to 10 years?

    a product (gun) is not the same as a service (abortion)
    But both are the means to a right.

    and naming a specific private business is not the same as defining the qualifications required of any business.
    But it's the reasoning which was the important part.

    Other than those obvious differences it is still a rediculous analogy.
    Of course it is...the point wasn't to use this as a springboard to gun control, but rather to highlight the absurdity of the logic. Hell, you even helped me out with it by noting just how short of time a week really is.


    When you understand why you have trouble with the reasoning behind the position, perhaps you'll gain some insight into the problems pro-choice has with the logic of pro-life in this thread.

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    Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    I added on after I saw you added on. Here's my post again:

    Hmm...are you trying to say there are circumstances early in the decision making process which make it difficult to take an action?

    And I am glad you understand what I'm trying to do. While the circumstances surrounding the situations are obviously different, perhaps it can provide some insight to why many in the pro-choice crowd do not care for much of the reasoning of the pro-life crowd in this thread.

    Yes, well kind of. I am still trying to make a point.

    That is true, a year is a much longer time. So then would you say I should shorten it to 10 years?

    But both are the means to a right.

    But it's the reasoning which was the important part.

    Of course it is...the point wasn't to use this as a springboard to gun control, but rather to highlight the absurdity of the logic. Hell, you even helped me out with it by noting just how short of time a week really is.


    When you understand why you have trouble with the reasoning behind the position, perhaps you'll gain some insight into the problems pro-choice has with the logic of pro-life in this thread.
    I would seriously advise studying the art of debate. Everything you're posting is foolish nonsense that doesn't correlate in any logical way to the abortion debate. Your analogy fails because the logic is asinine. You cannot argue against an opinion until you first learn to understand and respect the basis for that opinion. Your posts clearly show a lack of understanding. That isn't anybody else's problem.
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    Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    You can't prove something before it happens, so I don't see how they could have presented facts on how the bill would or wouldn't effect the safety of clinics and abortions.

    That's what I hate about the "this is going to happen when we pass this bill" conjecture. It's never correct. It either instills unjustified fears or false hopes.

    This bill could create havoc. It could lead to better care. It's really up to the antis and pros to decide which.

    What's particular sad to me is that the pros would rather sit back and let women pursue riskier options w/o interference to prove their point then take action and help clinics stay open through fundraising, advocacy, and charity relations, 'cause they can't prove their point and win the debate if they interfere positively.

    And it's the same with any legislation that requires changes. When those who oppose it sit back and do nothing, then scream about how the worst case scenario has come true...well, to me they're no better than those who had nefarious intentions in DRAFTING the legislation.

    "Be the change you want to see in the world."

    I want safer, better run, better regulated abortion clinics for women, because I'm not the only woman who had a bad experience. This is a chance for PPH and others to MAKE THAT HAPPEN with the full backing of the law on their side. And instead they pit themselves against it.
    No, you aren't the only woman who has had a bad experience, and it's important to speak up.

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    Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    You can't prove something before it happens, so I don't see how they could have presented facts on how the bill would or wouldn't effect the safety of clinics and abortions.

    That's what I hate about the "this is going to happen when we pass this bill" conjecture. It's never correct. It either instills unjustified fears or false hopes.

    This bill could create havoc. It could lead to better care. It's really up to the antis and pros to decide which.

    What's particular sad to me is that the pros would rather sit back and let women pursue riskier options w/o interference to prove their point then take action and help clinics stay open through fundraising, advocacy, and charity relations, 'cause they can't prove their point and win the debate if they interfere positively.

    And it's the same with any legislation that requires changes. When those who oppose it sit back and do nothing, then scream about how the worst case scenario has come true...well, to me they're no better than those who had nefarious intentions in DRAFTING the legislation.

    "Be the change you want to see in the world."

    I want safer, better run, better regulated abortion clinics for women, because I'm not the only woman who had a bad experience. This is a chance for PPH and others to MAKE THAT HAPPEN with the full backing of the law on their side. And instead they pit themselves against it.
    I do appreciate your concerns for women's health and safety in this matters. And I sincerely feel the same way. I wished it would have been approached in a different way. I think you do have to agree that there were a lot of the Legislators who's motive was to reduce abortion. Maybe not all, but in my opinion...too many.

    Again, for just me...I do see the word/term "choice" as crucial because most conceptions are brought to full-term...and that is clearly a "choice" made by all women who do so. I am a huge supporter of all who "choose" to bring their co-conceptions to full-term. But at the same time, there is a social obligation to such children when things go wrong with parents who, for whatever reason, can't provide or fails to provide a safe, caring environment.

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    Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    I think I support a similar law regarding firearms. You can only buy a gun in the first 20 years of your life. After that, you're no longer allowed to purchase them. After all, 20 years is plenty of time to decide. I know many countries have much more limiting criteria than 20 years. Furthermore, I support legislation which says firearms can only be sold at Bass Pro Shops. Sure, there are only a few of them scattered throughout the country, but how else can we make sure guns are being sold responsibly by people following the law?

    This is my proposal, and I fully expect the pro-life people in this thread to support my reasoning, even if you don't support my idea.
    How about no abortion for any reason until you're 18, no elective abortion until you're 21, and if you want to tell people about your abortion then you have to get a permit just like for carrying a gun, which means FBI fingerprints, background check, a 16 hour class, everything, just to carry an opinion about abortion.

    And you can't open-carry that opinion in TX even with a permit, such as a political t-shirt. Your opinion has to be concealed at all times and you must inform a cop that you have an opinion on abortion.

    Business owners can post a no-choice sign on their front door and if you then enter their business with an opinion on abortion, or of you've ever had an abortion, than you can be arrested for criminal trespassing, even if you a permit to have an opinion on abortion, are carrying your opinion concealed, and are in all other ways obeying the law and conducting yourself peacefully.
    Last edited by Jerry; 07-14-13 at 01:46 PM.

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    Re: Texas Senate passes sweeping new abortion restrictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    I added on after I saw you added on. Here's my post again:

    Hmm...are you trying to say there are circumstances early in the decision making process which make it difficult to take an action?

    And I am glad you understand what I'm trying to do. While the circumstances surrounding the situations are obviously different, perhaps it can provide some insight to why many in the pro-choice crowd do not care for much of the reasoning of the pro-life crowd in this thread.

    Yes, well kind of. I am still trying to make a point.

    That is true, a year is a much longer time. So then would you say I should shorten it to 10 years?

    But both are the means to a right.

    But it's the reasoning which was the important part.

    Of course it is...the point wasn't to use this as a springboard to gun control, but rather to highlight the absurdity of the logic. Hell, you even helped me out with it by noting just how short of time a week really is.


    When you understand why you have trouble with the reasoning behind the position, perhaps you'll gain some insight into the problems pro-choice has with the logic of pro-life in this thread.
    Well then lets try to "equate" a specific constituional right to keep and bear arms to a specific constitutional right to access abortion freely for the first trimester, a limitted abortion right for the second trimester and virtually no abortion right thereafter. To buy a handgun in Texas is easy (unless you had a DWI or some other criminal infraction) and so is getting an abortion within the first 12 weeks, to carry that handgun requires taking a class, passing a test and paying a large fee but to get an abortion after that 12th week through the 20th week is still just as easy. Only very limitted places may sell guns/ammo commercially, they must meet very strict conditions and keep exacting records - so must commercial abortion facilities under the new law. You see, "reasonable restrictions" are all still in the hands of the majority - despite any constituional implications to the contrary.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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