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Thread: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    I thought we were discussing prisoners. Now we're discussing me? Even now the state can detain people for mental illness.. If anything, I'm I'm trying to cut the prisoners some slack.

    Everything leads to greater evils. The good news is that the many people who disagree with me will win the day.



    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    No, it can only lead to greater evil.

    When a committee, or individual, has the power to decide who is 'mentally healthy' or not then we can throw in the towel. Luckily there are, so far, enough good people who will stand up against this craziness, until they too are fearful that this same committee may decide that they are 'mentally unhealthy' as well.

    There are many who disagree with you on this point. Would you want any of them filling in a form saying you are mentally unhealthy?

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I guess they shouldn't have ****ed up and got sent to the joint.
    What an absurd comment.

    Won't this save money becaue they won't be spitting out puppies that we have to support? I mean, that's the argument used to support tax payer funded abortion.
    Love the eugenicist rhetoric in the form of dehumanizing the individuals in question.

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    When you don't make the RIGHT choices for yourself someone else WILL do that for you. I cannot really hold it against California. Sorry - I can understand their decision completely, though it violate one form of rights - not doing so enables these mothers to just be ****ing retarded idiots.
    Giving the state the power to decide what is right for our bodies, to force surgery upon us without consent, is dangerous. Who in the state decides? Based on what criteria? What keeps them from broadening the criteria so that what began as acceptable limits expand over time to include anyone who is an annoyance to those in charge? Yes, I'm going full on slippery slope.

    The U.S. has a history of forced sterilization. Can we not learn from that?
    I don't attack my constituents. Bob is my constituent now.
    This is the important stuff. We canít get lost in discrimination. We canít get lost in B.S. We canít get lost tearing each other down. I want to make a point here that no matter what you look like, where you come from, how you worship, who you love, how you identify, and yeah, how you run, that if you have good public policy ideas, if you are well qualified for office, bring those ideas to the table, because this is your America, too. This is our commonwealth of Virginia, too.
    Danica Roem - The nation's first openly transgender person elected to serve in a U.S. state legislature.

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    I thought we were discussing prisoners. Now we're discussing me? Even now the state can detain people for mental illness.. If anything, I'm I'm trying to cut the prisoners some slack.

    Everything leads to greater evils. The good news is that the many people who disagree with me will win the day.
    No, it was 'you' as in an example. It is that they can do it to anyone, you or I or our neighbor, if a committee feels we are mentally unhealthy. We could easily then get rid of someone for their political or religious beliefs if it came to that. That oft mentioned 'slippery slope' is visible from where I'm sitting.

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree
    There are means of tying dollars to worker programs or education, to setting limits on amount of dollars and duration of services.
    Been there, done that. What do we have to show for it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree
    Instead of considering that to be the proper course, you argue the necessity to go much farther.
    Absolutely.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree
    On the side, do you believe in the necessity to clamp down on the legalities of abortion?
    I would tie this to government paid abortions as well.

    My whole viewpoint is based on my solid belief that we are a free people, and that our freedoms should not be curtailed, until we impose of others. Let a person do as they please unless they are asking for help. That help then, may come with a price. If the reason the help is needed, is because of fault of the individual asking, then I have no moral difficulties in requiring that in return, we do what is necessary so the problem is not a repeat problem.

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    I see there is a disparity in our views of the art of discussion.

    Unfortunately, I view all my discussions as being fun. I consider my posting to have zero impact on the world and thus I view it as 100% entertainment.

    I'd be happy to discuss slavery and genocide. If I find a thread about it, I'll participate, just as I have here with my applicable opinions and suppositions. Awareness is in the eye of the beholder.



    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Because even when the procedure was said to be voluntary, it was not. We have a long history of that being the case. The coercion is also not wanted, because, just as that article discussed, it targeted people when they were most vulnerable. I am against coercion with reproductive rights, because it has and continues to be an extension of power being used against vulnerable populations.




    If that is the case, then may I ask when the last time was that you had a substantive discussion on the merits of slavery or genocide? Did you and your sparring mate chuckle at the idea of wholesale killing some specified ethnic group? If it is your supposition that this is just any ordinary policy measure, then it is you who are unaware.



    It's lived history, Speck. It is not hypothetical.

    No, Speck, it shouldn't be "fun" to talk about this.

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    Giving the state the power to decide what is right for our bodies, to force surgery upon us without consent, is dangerous. Who in the state decides? Based on what criteria? What keeps them from broadening the criteria so that what began as acceptable limits expand over time to include anyone who is an annoyance to those in charge? Yes, I'm going full on slippery slope.

    The U.S. has a history of forced sterilization. Can we not learn from that?
    Well - the criteria was nulled several years ago. Aside that - it wasn't widespread practice.

    And apparently they did get consent - it was just coerced.

    Immoral - yes
    Unethical - yes
    Pitiable - no
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post

    However, this conundrum is composed of two elements. Concept and Execution. The concept is fundamentally sound. We slightly decrease breeding by criminals (the methodology is yet to be discussed) and slightly reduce future burdens on society. Most criminals are incredibly dumb. A frequent defense is that they are abused, retarded and their IQ too low to make them responsible for their crimes. Not a sure defense, but frequent enough to identify what kind of person robs a liquor store at gunpoint. Even without the camera issue. Even the possibility of return fire. Even without thought of the risk/reward equation. Most criminals are not Bernie Maddoff.

    I'm a die-hard dystopia fan and I can see many Gattaca's ahead. When only the rich can have their genetics modified. Only the rich can make backup copies of themselves. Only the rich have space yachts. But, really, that's not the topic here unless we must extrapolate hundreds of years into the future. If we're that far sighted, why are we still driving cars and contaminating the earth with the residue? So, it seems to me that this is a good place to start. Initially, only people with something to gain will accept this solution. Prisoners.

    I prefer to hope it will lead use to a mentally healthier society.
    The concept is not fundamentally sound when the subject is human reproduction. Animal husbandry, farming? Yes. But once you are talking about human beings, it is fundamentally, morally, reprehensible. We are not animals to be selectively bred or not. Because eugenics focuses on those with the smallest voices in our society, the poor and disabled, it is inherently unfair and biased.

    Focusing on prison inmates is not even a fair criteria. People screw up and lots of people go straight afterward. Many don't, but beyond their debt to society being paid by incarceration, they don't owe society their human reproductive rights. There are also those people who are imprisoned wrongly. One cannot say the judicial system is always fair and is therefore an accurate way to target who should be forcibly sterilized.

    In another post you said the OP is not about forcible sterilization. The article gives examples which would refute that. One woman was badgered as she was on the delivery table. Without full and informed consent, given free from the pressure of a doctor or agent of the state, it is at best coercion and force at the worst. If this wasn't you, my apologies. I can't find the post to quote it.
    I don't attack my constituents. Bob is my constituent now.
    This is the important stuff. We canít get lost in discrimination. We canít get lost in B.S. We canít get lost tearing each other down. I want to make a point here that no matter what you look like, where you come from, how you worship, who you love, how you identify, and yeah, how you run, that if you have good public policy ideas, if you are well qualified for office, bring those ideas to the table, because this is your America, too. This is our commonwealth of Virginia, too.
    Danica Roem - The nation's first openly transgender person elected to serve in a U.S. state legislature.

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Well - the criteria was nulled several years ago. Aside that - it wasn't widespread practice.

    And apparently they did get consent - it was just coerced.

    Immoral - yes
    Unethical - yes
    Pitiable - no
    Given the state coerced them, the state doesn't shouldn't be permitted to decide.

    Fair enough, I'm not asking for pity for them, I'm saying that agents of the state and doctors not be allowed to go on coercing. There should be no more cases like this. Ever.
    I don't attack my constituents. Bob is my constituent now.
    This is the important stuff. We canít get lost in discrimination. We canít get lost in B.S. We canít get lost tearing each other down. I want to make a point here that no matter what you look like, where you come from, how you worship, who you love, how you identify, and yeah, how you run, that if you have good public policy ideas, if you are well qualified for office, bring those ideas to the table, because this is your America, too. This is our commonwealth of Virginia, too.
    Danica Roem - The nation's first openly transgender person elected to serve in a U.S. state legislature.

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    What I said was my post was not about forced sterilization. I didn't speak for the OP.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    The concept is not fundamentally sound when the subject is human reproduction. Animal husbandry, farming? Yes. But once you are talking about human beings, it is fundamentally, morally, reprehensible. We are not animals to be selectively bred or not. Because eugenics focuses on those with the smallest voices in our society, the poor and disabled, it is inherently unfair and biased.

    Focusing on prison inmates is not even a fair criteria. People screw up and lots of people go straight afterward. Many don't, but beyond their debt to society being paid by incarceration, they don't owe society their human reproductive rights. There are also those people who are imprisoned wrongly. One cannot say the judicial system is always fair and is therefore an accurate way to target who should be forcibly sterilized.

    In another post you said the OP is not about forcible sterilization. The article gives examples which would refute that. One woman was badgered as she was on the delivery table. Without full and informed consent, given free from the pressure of a doctor or agent of the state, it is at best coercion and force at the worst. If this wasn't you, my apologies. I can't find the post to quote it.

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