Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst ... 678910 ... LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 104

Thread: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

  1. #71
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Canada, Costa Rica
    Last Seen
    05-16-16 @ 09:45 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    31,645

    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    That is basically coercive. The choice is either get sterilized or stay in prison.
    Or both.

  2. #72
    Angry Former GOP Voter
    Fiddytree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:42 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    25,709

    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    I didn't see this response before I wrote my other response so I hope you'll accept that I have pretty much responded in post #60.

    Your argument that something failed in the past so we shouldn't address it in the future is hardly valid. No doubt you are sincere but using that line of reasoning we would never have a ground war anywhere and drugs would be legal just to use a couple of striking examples.


    Eugenics are a great idea but just like nuclear weapons, it must be used with intelligence and restraint. I would cheerfully go to the most powerful man and tell him of his genetic disorder. By achievement alone, that man would likely agree to the sterilization. It would be the wise choice and his position indicates he chooses wisely.

    As for "People in prison, the mentally ill, the destitute, unpopular minorities", you were doing well until you played the race card. If I asked you for a dollar, you would claim I asked you for a million pounds of gold. That's just drama.

    Read this FREE story and maybe you'll understand where I'm coming from. THE MARCHING MORONS
    Some experiences had such dramatic repercussions that as a society we say ought to say "no more." These are not simple policy measures with consequences, these were policies that became a black mark for the entire western world.

    Furthermore, I am sorry, but you don't deserve respectful discussion when you are literally advocating stripping individuals of basic human rights. This holds especially true for me when those you advocate sterilization for are people I personally know. Why should I, or anyone else give you respect?
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 07-09-13 at 05:01 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  3. #73
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Last Seen
    06-27-15 @ 05:50 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Private
    Posts
    2,191

    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    I have lived in Europe, and South America, and Africa, and currently in Asia. Libertarians exist everywhere. If your sources of political theory are limited to talking heads on American television, particularly Fox News and MSNBC, then that would explain where you are coming from. If you would like some books to read I can recommend them. Hell, even a little bit of time on Wikidpedia's Libertarianism page will enlighten you a bit. But if you want to have a deeper conversation on this it really should go in its own thread.

    Yes but, for instance, Karl Marx is a perfect example of this phenomena of which I speak in that Libertarian Leftists do not actually exist in policy anywhere. Marx often said he didn't want to be labeled a Marxist himself because he didn't like what people were doing with his ideas. In other words, people were taking his basic ideology of wage equality for workers and capitalists and turning it into a massive draconian state full of 'State Capitalists' (Soviet Russia, China). They were simply replacing market capitalists with state capitalists.

    Ultimately all the Left represents policy wise and always has been in practice in every country, be it Russia, China, The US, England, no matter what its ideology claims, is to foster and create a dual 'State Class' that can compete for influence with capitalists, hence creating civil society, bureaucrats, essentially in crude terms 'The State mob to which the capitalists must pay their dues to ply their trade'. That is what all modern Leftism is. In China if a capitalist wants to build a factory, he better have cigarettes, Luxury vacations and an offshore account ready for the proper state bosses. It's no different in America or any other country (but we claim it is, it isn't). There is no "Social Left". That doesn't exist, and if it does, all it really amounts to is State Capitalists attempting population control.

    http://www.celebritynetworth.com/ric...vez-net-worth/


    Hugo Chavez net worth: Hugo Chavez was a Venezuelan politician who had a net worth of $1 billion at the time of his death on March 5th 2013. A 2010 report from Criminal Justice International Associates (CJIA), a global risk assessment and threat mitigation firm estimated that the Chavez family assets totaled between $1 and $2 billion USD. The vast majority of these assets are oil related and were controlled by Hugo himself prior to his death. The head of the CJIA, Jerry Brewer, asserted that since Hugo's rise to power in 1999, the extended family has amassed its fortune through both legal and illegal methods. Brewer further estimates that the Chavez family and hundreds of other criminal organization have "subtracted $100 billion out of the nearly $1 trillion in oil income made by PDVSA (Venezuela's state controlled oil company), since 1999."
    Last edited by Ryan5; 07-09-13 at 05:15 PM.

  4. #74
    Sage
    Lord of Planar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Portlandia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    23,381

    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    I'm surprised nobody replied to my post #43. Do you all agree?

  5. #75
    Angry Former GOP Voter
    Fiddytree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:42 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    25,709

    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Planar View Post
    My solution is this.

    If a woman comes in an applies for social services due to a child conceived, that a condition of the use of "other people's money" requires her and the father to have their tubes tied.

    Now of course, there would be reasonable exceptions in place but if a couple is to be irresponsible or unlucky and have birth control fail, without the means to support the child themselves, then shouldn't we protect the people's money from having to incur such a cost again?
    No, I do not agree. That is an unreasonable demand. You are punishing the person with more than just stigma.

    And if the child has a disability, which may require the use of public funds, because the child needs services?
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  6. #76
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Canada, Costa Rica
    Last Seen
    05-16-16 @ 09:45 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    31,645

    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    I prefer to hope it will lead use to a mentally healthier society.
    No, it can only lead to greater evil.

    When a committee, or individual, has the power to decide who is 'mentally healthy' or not then we can throw in the towel. Luckily there are, so far, enough good people who will stand up against this craziness, until they too are fearful that this same committee may decide that they are 'mentally unhealthy' as well.

    There are many who disagree with you on this point. Would you want any of them filling in a form saying you are mentally unhealthy?

  7. #77
    Discount Philosopher
    specklebang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Last Seen
    06-05-14 @ 08:26 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    11,524

    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    You make a claim of "such dramatic repercussions" . What were those dramatic repercussions? Just bear in mind that we're discussing voluntary sterilization, not compulsory and that we're offering a reward, not seizing the persons.

    I've usually found you interesting and articulate. You are sometimes very humorous and keen witted. But in your second sentence, you have shown a lack of a certain awareness.

    The entire purpose of these boards is to hold a conversation with other people even though you are sitting at home. Each of us presents a position. I have a position and I'm defending that position using the most persuasive approach possible. I'm being articulate and polite. You have a different position. Asking you to also be articulate and polite is not unreasonable.

    No matter what you discuss and how "right" or "wrong" you are or another party is, will not affect the fabric of reality by one iota. Nothing you post or I post will be taken into consideration by the rest of the world. This is a conversational exercise, we are not in the White House Situation Room.

    Every time I see insults exchanged over partisan positions I flinch. Do you think the universe gives a rat's ass about your positions on abortion? NASA funding? Drug laws? It's ridiculous to believe so.

    Now, here we are in a completely hypothetical discussion of eugenics. I've contributed to the conversation. I've expressed myself without rancor. Do you think that not agreeing with me would give you or anyone the right to be disrespectful? Do you think disagreement is a valid basis for refusing further conversation? Why are you even here? This isn't a hug-box. It's a debate board. At least half the people here disagree with you about something. Will you not communicate with them?

    Please re-think your position. I've said some of what I have to say on the subject. I thought we were having some fun. If not, I can remove myself from the thread and you can wait until everybody here thinks that eugenics is a mortal sin. I would think that would be boring but....





    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Some experiences had such dramatic repercussions that as a society we say ought to say "no more." These are not simple policy measures with consequences, these were policies that became a black mark for the entire western world.

    Furthermore, I am sorry, but you don't deserve respectful discussion when you are literally advocating stripping individuals of basic human rights. This holds especially true for me when those you advocate sterilization for are people I personally know. Why should I, or anyone else give you respect?

  8. #78
    Sage
    Lord of Planar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Portlandia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    23,381

    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree
    No, I do not agree. That is an unreasonable demand. You are punishing the person with more than just stigma.
    Yes. Punishing them for being irresponsible. Punishing them for the entitlement attitude that society must provide for their mistakes. Creating an environment where the stigma acts as a deterrent for others not to make society provide for them.

    Do you have a better solution?


    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree
    And if the child has a disability, which may require the use of public funds, because the child needs services?
    Did you miss this part:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of planar
    Now of course, there would be reasonable exceptions in place

  9. #79
    Angry Former GOP Voter
    Fiddytree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:42 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    25,709

    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    You make a claim of "such dramatic repercussions" . What were those dramatic repercussions? Just bear in mind that we're discussing voluntary sterilization, not compulsory and that we're offering a reward, not seizing the persons.
    Because even when the procedure was said to be voluntary, it was not. We have a long history of that being the case. The coercion is also not wanted, because, just as that article discussed, it targeted people when they were most vulnerable. I am against coercion with reproductive rights, because it has and continues to be an extension of power being used against vulnerable populations.


    The entire purpose of these boards is to hold a conversation with other people even though you are sitting at home. Each of us presents a position. I have a position and I'm defending that position using the most persuasive approach possible. I'm being articulate and polite. You have a different position. Asking you to also be articulate and polite is not unreasonable.
    If that is the case, then may I ask when the last time was that you had a substantive discussion on the merits of slavery or genocide? Did you and your sparring mate chuckle at the idea of wholesale killing some specified ethnic group? If it is your supposition that this is just any ordinary policy measure, then it is you who are unaware.

    Now, here we are in a completely hypothetical discussion of eugenics.
    It's lived history, Speck. It is not hypothetical.

    No, Speck, it shouldn't be "fun" to talk about this.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  10. #80
    Angry Former GOP Voter
    Fiddytree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:42 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    25,709

    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Planar View Post
    Yes. Punishing them for being irresponsible. Punishing them for the entitlement attitude that society must provide for their mistakes. Creating an environment where the stigma acts as a deterrent for others not to make society provide for them.
    There are means of tying dollars to worker programs or education, to setting limits on amount of dollars and duration of services. Instead of considering that to be the proper course, you argue the necessity to go much farther.

    On the side, do you believe in the necessity to clamp down on the legalities of abortion?

    Did you miss this part:
    I didn't miss it. My prodding question was in order to discover if you were considering different variables.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst ... 678910 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •