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Thread: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

  1. #21
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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    I agree with you, a moment as rare as a Unicorn sighting.




    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    " I " approve of sterilization, but in no way forced .

    Give these women an option or two and you can cut back on abortions and children growing up in poverty with ex-con parents.

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    The fewer children these women have will be a gift to society. I'd like to see them offer reduced sentences in exchange for male or female sterilization. Anything that will reduce the exponential growth those least able to produce decent children.



    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    Yes, because only physical force is valid when it comes to "forcing" someone to have something done.

    Ever heard of undue pressure? Mental blackmail? These are not incredibly smart women (well most of them won't be), they are people who do stupid crime and who most likely won't have had a decent education and who can be pressured or browbeaten into something by a smart "salesperson" (in this case a doctor).

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    I’m not advocating the woman have the children. I think it is foolish for her to keep having children. I am saying the State should not have the authority to force an adult to undergo a surgical procedure.



    No, illogical would be if I claimed to want to live in a free society while at the same time advocating that the State should has dominion over our bodies.





    Unfortunately most Americans are not familiar with the traditional definition of libertarianism or the definition used by most of the world and assume it is what the Libertarian Party platform states. Since a sizeable portion of the membership of this forum are Americans (I am as well) I use the lean “Libertarian-Left” to differentiate myself from the Americanized version of the definition. Do a little reading on the subject. You might find it interesting.


    No it is you who are mistaken.


    I don't care in the slightest about some international version of libertarianism (which absolutely does not exist, I've spoken to many a European and none of them have Libertarians in their countries political systems). We're talking about the American left and American Libertarianism. We're in the empire. Don't drag us into some despicable internationalist version of anything so as to muddy the waters.


    In America the Left represents Government, not some myopic radical 'Libertarian Left' which grants an individual any right. That is not the American Left and never has been. In America the Left is pro big government and pro government intervention in your life (taxing you, creating eternal subservience via welfare/other).


    You seem to have it mixed up that the Left is not this in America, it is. The Right is the individualist party. The Left *is* the side with the judiciary, the judges, big govt and its subsidiaries. The right is the one that argues that she should be able to have 10 kids, not the left. Again, you seem to be confused. The Left in America pushes abortion and birth control for a reason and it isn't for civil rights or women's rights, it's the Lefts answer to many things conservatives don't have an answer for frankly. (Population control of certain negative social subsets, single mothers, generational poverty, +++).
    Last edited by Ryan5; 07-09-13 at 02:13 AM.

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    The fewer children these women have will be a gift to society. I'd like to see them offer reduced sentences in exchange for male or female sterilization. Anything that will reduce the exponential growth those least able to produce decent children.
    That is basically coercive. The choice is either get sterilized or stay in prison.

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    So what? Some reasonable thought would have to be given as to how much of a "discount" you get, and my committee hasn't formed yet to sort this completely out.

    When you're a prisoner, we coerce you into living in a tiny space with no comforts and no privacy. In Norway, it's not a crime to break out of prison because they feel it ius natural. In America, breakouts are harshly punished. In my view, this would be a reasonable exchange between society and those who harmed society.



    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    That is basically coercive. The choice is either get sterilized or stay in prison.

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    So what? Some reasonable thought would have to be given as to how much of a "discount" you get, and my committee hasn't formed yet to sort this completely out.

    When you're a prisoner, we coerce you into living in a tiny space with no comforts and no privacy. In Norway, it's not a crime to break out of prison because they feel it ius natural. In America, breakouts are harshly punished. In my view, this would be a reasonable exchange between society and those who harmed society.
    It's one thing to put someone in a jail cell and give them no choice to leave, which honestly is bad enough, but it's another to give them a choice between imprisonment and agreeing to lose bodily functions on the condition of the release. Do you honestly think it is right for the state to offer a coercive choice that ends in bodily impairment?

    Do you really want the state to have the power to offer those kind of choices to desperate people? The condition of imprisonment is obviously a strong motivator for them to accept any condition on release including losing bodily function.

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan5 View Post
    No it is you who are mistaken.


    I don't care in the slightest about some international version of libertarianism (which absolutely does not exist, I've spoken to many a European and none of them have Libertarians in their countries political systems). We're talking about the American left and American Libertarianism. We're in the empire. Don't drag us into some despicable internationalist version of anything so as to muddy the waters.


    In America the Left represents Government, not some myopic radical 'Libertarian Left' which grants an individual any right. That is not the American Left and never has been. In America the Left is pro big government and pro government intervention in your life (taxing you, creating eternal subservience via welfare/other).


    You seem to have it mixed up that the Left is not this in America, it is. The Right is the individualist party. The Left *is* the side with the judiciary, the judges, big govt and its subsidiaries. The right is the one that argues that she should be able to have 10 kids, not the left. Again, you seem to be confused. The Left in America pushes abortion and birth control for a reason and it isn't for civil rights or women's rights, it's the Lefts answer to many things conservatives don't have an answer for frankly. (Population control of certain negative social subsets, single mothers, generational poverty, +++).
    I have lived in Europe, and South America, and Africa, and currently in Asia. Libertarians exist everywhere. If your sources of political theory are limited to talking heads on American television, particularly Fox News and MSNBC, then that would explain where you are coming from. If you would like some books to read I can recommend them. Hell, even a little bit of time on Wikidpedia's Libertarianism page will enlighten you a bit. But if you want to have a deeper conversation on this it really should go in its own thread.

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Yes, I am completely content to have them lose this particular body function. It does not prevent them from finding true love and screwing their brains out when they are released. Who and how as I said earlier, would need some serious thought. Maybe the offer is restricted to certain crimes, certain histories and in the best of all worlds (mine that is) certain IQ levels.




    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    It's one thing to put someone in a jail cell and give them no choice to leave, which honestly is bad enough, but it's another to give them a choice between imprisonment and agreeing to lose bodily functions on the condition of the release. Do you honestly think it is right for the state to offer a coercive choice that ends in bodily impairment?

    Do you really want the state to have the power to offer those kind of choices to desperate people? The condition of imprisonment is obviously a strong motivator for them to accept any condition on release including losing bodily function.

  9. #29
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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    Yes, I am completely content to have them lose this particular body function. It does not prevent them from finding true love and screwing their brains out when they are released. Who and how as I said earlier, would need some serious thought. Maybe the offer is restricted to certain crimes, certain histories and in the best of all worlds (mine that is) certain IQ levels.
    We already did exactly that and it lead to disastrous consequences.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    The fewer children these women have will be a gift to society. I'd like to see them offer reduced sentences in exchange for male or female sterilization. Anything that will reduce the exponential growth those least able to produce decent children.
    Have you ever cracked a history book? Every attempt to "improve society" through government sterilization has lead to atrocities. There is no debate on whether its a slippery slope when you can see the mangled bodies of the last group of idiots who took that path. The state cannot be trusted with such power as abuse is inevitable.

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