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Thread: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    What I said was my post was not about forced sterilization. I didn't speak for the OP.
    Fair enough, I couldn't find that post again after I submitted my previous reply.

    As to the rest of my reply to you?
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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    As I've said earlier, my thoughts on this are not really relevant. So far, all I've accomplished was to disturb other people here and realistically, outside this incident, any effort to improve our population in any way is sheer Science Fiction. We hold even the dumbest, most useless humans in such high regard that we import them and encourage them and our own domestic failures to breed under state sponsorship. We literally pay people to have children.

    So, there is no danger that Eugenics will be implemented. Some prisoners will now be lavishly compensated by the taxpayers and the scandal will be brushed aside. Eventually, IDIOCRACY will be historically relevant.

    I surrender



    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    The concept is not fundamentally sound when the subject is human reproduction. Animal husbandry, farming? Yes. But once you are talking about human beings, it is fundamentally, morally, reprehensible. We are not animals to be selectively bred or not. Because eugenics focuses on those with the smallest voices in our society, the poor and disabled, it is inherently unfair and biased.

    Focusing on prison inmates is not even a fair criteria. People screw up and lots of people go straight afterward. Many don't, but beyond their debt to society being paid by incarceration, they don't owe society their human reproductive rights. There are also those people who are imprisoned wrongly. One cannot say the judicial system is always fair and is therefore an accurate way to target who should be forcibly sterilized.

    In another post you said the OP is not about forcible sterilization. The article gives examples which would refute that. One woman was badgered as she was on the delivery table. Without full and informed consent, given free from the pressure of a doctor or agent of the state, it is at best coercion and force at the worst. If this wasn't you, my apologies. I can't find the post to quote it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    Fair enough, I couldn't find that post again after I submitted my previous reply.

    As to the rest of my reply to you?

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    Given the state coerced them, the state doesn't shouldn't be permitted to decide.

    Fair enough, I'm not asking for pity for them, I'm saying that agents of the state and doctors not be allowed to go on coercing. There should be no more cases like this. Ever.
    Yeah I agree.

    There's just this part of me that really wants to club these idiot women over the head.
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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by a351 View Post
    What an absurd comment.



    Love the eugenicist rhetoric in the form of dehumanizing the individuals in question.
    Ever hear of Margaret Sanger?
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    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Should the State have the authority to force us to pay for those children?
    I admit these types of questions are getting difficult for me to answer. On one hand I find myself being increasingly against the State. Believing the State just makes things worse. Believing that so much of the poverty we have is in large part due to the actions of the State and the Big Money interests that the State props up. And the LAST thing I want to do is to give the State any more power than it has already taken. But then, at the same time, the children had nothing at all to do with the situation they are in. And if the State is, in part, responsible for the mess they are in then shouldn’t it help ensure they are provided for?

    I am conflicted. To be honest I am on the verge of preferring anarchism to this police state we have. But we don’t live in an anarchist society. And even if the day comes that the People decide to dismantle the State, it makes a difference in what order it is dismantled. Does it make sense to stop welfare BEFORE stopping all the policies that contribute to making welfare necessary in the first place?

    I don’t know.

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    I admit these types of questions are getting difficult for me to answer.
    I find it simply down to the concept of responsibility. When others impose on us because of their lack of responsibility, shouldn't we also have the right to dictate the terms of that help? There are those who call me authoritarian over this issue. My response then is don't tax me for social programs if I don't get a say in how my money is spend. Since we are divided on issues like these, I tell those who support social programs to start a charity, and have like minded individual contribute. Just stay out of my pocket if I disagree with how the money is spent.

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Planar View Post
    I find it simply down to the concept of responsibility. When others impose on us because of their lack of responsibility, shouldn't we also have the right to dictate the terms of that help? There are those who call me authoritarian over this issue. My response then is don't tax me for social programs if I don't get a say in how my money is spend. Since we are divided on issues like these, I tell those who support social programs to start a charity, and have like minded individual contribute. Just stay out of my pocket if I disagree with how the money is spent.
    I tend to agree.

    Thus - in cases as this "I'm pregnant with my 7th child - and I'm in jail" I think a judge would be fully within reason to court order the procedure. . . . I did think about this for quite some time and I feel it's appropriate because the state/federal government become responsible to support said 7 unwanted children who REFUSED to use birth control or make the decision on her own.

    There's no excuse to have that many children when you OBVIOUSLY will not care for them on your own.

    I don't believe reproduction is an inalienable right.
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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Planar View Post
    Been there, done that. What do we have to show for it?



    Absolutely.



    I would tie this to government paid abortions as well.

    My whole viewpoint is based on my solid belief that we are a free people, and that our freedoms should not be curtailed, until we impose of others. Let a person do as they please unless they are asking for help. That help then, may come with a price. If the reason the help is needed, is because of fault of the individual asking, then I have no moral difficulties in requiring that in return, we do what is necessary so the problem is not a repeat problem.
    I don't see the need to attack human dignity because it involves taxpayer funds. You can argue about the disbursement of funds and the duration of such, which we would of course disagree on, but there is no excuse for this. I am shocked that I continually see libertarians, who are ordinarily so concerned about the tyranny of the government infringing upon our civil liberties, argue in favor of the one of the most egregious acts of human rights violations possible...just because it involves getting money from taxpayers.
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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    As I've said earlier, my thoughts on this are not really relevant. So far, all I've accomplished was to disturb other people here and realistically, outside this incident, any effort to improve our population in any way is sheer Science Fiction. We hold even the dumbest, most useless humans in such high regard that we import them and encourage them and our own domestic failures to breed under state sponsorship. We literally pay people to have children.

    So, there is no danger that Eugenics will be implemented. Some prisoners will now be lavishly compensated by the taxpayers and the scandal will be brushed aside. Eventually, IDIOCRACY will be historically relevant.

    I surrender
    There's no danger of it? Come on, man. Right now it is somewhat easy for guardians to sterilize and tinker with an individual they have legal authority over, without informed consent. It is common for social workers and doctors to coerce families into giving up their parental rights so that they can put the child wherever they want. We keep hearing the platitudes of wanting to improve the genetic pool of humanity through various screenings, the constant derision of life that is not physical norm or neurotypical from the political Right, Left, and Center. The lure of the Left toward neo-eugenics is very distressing. It's still a strong worry when your population is still very much looked down on and they are used as objects of convenience (or wanted as objects of convenience).
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 07-10-13 at 12:53 AM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Nearly 250 female inmates sterilized in California prisons without state approval

    Apparently I've managed to overlook this situation. It sounds like Brave New World started without me. Oh well, I'm not terribly surprised, anything is possible. Could you give me one good link to this problem overall, not an individual scandal. Maybe I'll learn something.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    There's no danger of it? Come on, man. Right now it is somewhat easy for guardians to sterilize and tinker with an individual they have legal authority over, without informed consent. It is common for social workers and doctors to coerce families into giving up their parental rights so that they can put the child wherever they want. We keep hearing the platitudes of wanting to improve the genetic pool of humanity through various screenings, the constant derision of life that is not physical norm or neurotypical from the political Right, Left, and Center. The lure of the Left toward neo-eugenics is very distressing. It's still a strong worry when your population is still very much looked down on and they are used as objects of convenience (or wanted as objects of convenience).

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