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I.R.S. Scrutiny Went Beyond the Political

Does everything have to be absolute to you? Either the president is personally involved in literally every action the government takes, or he does nothing but parties all day? There's no in between for you?

Sorry, I'd forgotten that the average leftist and Obama apologist lacks the humor gene. I was being facetious, since no matter what the issue, your kind immediately claims it wasn't Obama's fault - it's either Bush's fault or Obama knows nothing. So ask yourself your own question.
 
Sorry, I'd forgotten that the average leftist and Obama apologist lacks the humor gene. I was being facetious, since no matter what the issue, your kind immediately claims it wasn't Obama's fault - it's either Bush's fault or Obama knows nothing. So ask yourself your own question.

tsk, tsk ,,, come on CJ ... I went back and read what Deuce was responding to and you can't have it both ways ... what you claim to be humorous is what you've been saying about the big-eared guy for some time now ... you despise the guy and you've made that clear in post after post after post .... BTW, you're the last poster who should accuse anyone of lacking a sense of humor ... Really?
 
Guess we're not reading the same thread then. According to the OP there is no NEED for an investigation because there was no singling out of right wing groups. That sounds like he made his mind up to me, so it is rational to point out to him that:

I'm reading THIS thread here and obviously you are in lala land. No, the OP did not say there is NO NEED for an investigation. NOWHERE. Please show the EXACT words where this was claimed or just admit to lying.

1. the investigation is not over

Nope, it isn't over, but thus far Obama is not tied to this regardless of your lying that he is.

2. finding one palestinian group and one black sorority that were held up to IRS scrutiny and comparing that with the tea party groups held up en masse by IRS dirty tricks is a stretch to put it mildly. hardly proof that these attacks weren't politically motivated.

As you said, the investigation is not over so how can you make that claim. Are you not interested if BOTH sides were wrongly scrutinized? Doesn't seem like you are to me, it seems you are just hoping Obama is tied to it.

3. nobody is saying Obama was aware of it when it happened, but that doesn't mean he wasn't aware of a cover up. according to reports the Administration had this administration last year during the heat of the election, yet somehow this stuff didn't leak out until after the election. I want to know exactly how that all went down, and was anyone in the administration guilty of lying to protect Obama's reelection chances.

Sorry, but there is still NO EVIDENCE that Obama knew of the cover up. ZERO. PERIOD. Will that change as the investigation goes on? Maybe, maybe not. But as it stands Obama is not tied to this right now given the evidence.

so I've walked you through it now. So could you all stop repeating over and over that Obama didn't know anything about it. It's bigger than just that question, understand? which is why, black sorority and the PLO aside, the investigation must, and SHOULD, continue.

No, all you've walked me through is a lie of what you think the OP said but didn't, and your OPINION that somehow Obama is tied to this. Maybe you should just quit while your behind, because you haven't presented ****. And yet again, NOONE here in this thread has said for the investigation to STOP.
 
Why did Lois Lerner invoke her 5th Amendment rights? If nothing wrong was done, that is...

So you are saying that invoking the 5th is automatic admission of guilt?
 
So you are saying that invoking the 5th is automatic admission of guilt?

Of course it is. A jury can't see it that way and yse it as evidence to convict, but it is admitting to breaking the law.
 
Of course it is. A jury can't see it that way and yse it as evidence to convict, but it is admitting to breaking the law.

Sorry but no, invoking the 5th is not admission of guilt. Good thing you don't have anything to do with our justice system. Innocent until proven guilty, unless apdst is in charge, then its guilty until proven innocent.
 
Sorry but no, invoking the 5th is not admission of guilt. Good thing you don't have anything to do with our justice system. Innocent until proven guilty, unless apdst is in charge, then its guilty until proven innocent.

Me, John Q, can see it as an admission of guilt if I choose. I am still free to use that to form an opion.
 
Me, John Q, can see it as an admission of guilt if I choose. I am still free to use that to form an opion.
Absolutely, you can see it anyway you want. Do you think the framers of the Constitution saw it that way?
 
Absolutely, you can see it anyway you want. Do you think the framers of the Constitution saw it that way?

Of course, hence the 1st Amendment.
 
Sorry but no, invoking the 5th is not admission of guilt. Good thing you don't have anything to do with our justice system. Innocent until proven guilty, unless apdst is in charge, then its guilty until proven innocent.

If I plead the 5th, it means that I believe answering a question or line of questions will cause me to incriminate myself in some wrongdoing. It isn't an admission of guilt to any particular wrongdoing but rather a blanket statement that I did do something I could be prosecuted for. It could in fact be completely unrelated to the proceedings under which I am being asked to answer questions about. Presumably she pleaded the 5th on advice from council because it is not straightforward or all encompassing.

I found an old article which in MHO seems to still be relevant and here is a quote from it:

Civil cases are different. In civil actions, however, there is no prosecutor on hand. The issue then shifts to whether "the claimant is confronted by substantial and ‘real,’ and not merely trifling or imaginary, hazards of incrimination." Marchetti v. United States , 390 U.S. 39, 453, 88 S. Ct.. 697, 705, 19 L. Ed. 2d 889 (1968). Because the privilege against self-incrimination applies only in "instances where the witness has reasonable cause to apprehend danger" of criminal liability, the deposing lawyer should assess in advance, in light of what counsel knows about the case, whether the witness has a realistic basis for such a fear. Hoffman v. United States, 341 U.S. 479, 486, (1951), quoted in U.S. v. Argomaniz, 925 F. 2d 1349 (11th Cir. 1991).

The article is a bit long but you can find it on the American Bar Association website: Business Law Today: Taking the 5th: How to pierce the testamonial shield

So, I am putting forth that pleading the 5th is an admission to guilt. It's just that when someone pleads the 5th you don't have any idea of what that guilt pertains to.
 
Me, John Q, can see it as an admission of guilt if I choose. I am still free to use that to form an opion.

Sure you are, just like I am free to criticize. Don't like it, go pound sand.
 
If I plead the 5th, it means that I believe answering a question or line of questions will cause me to incriminate myself in some wrongdoing. It isn't an admission of guilt to any particular wrongdoing but rather a blanket statement that I did do something I could be prosecuted for. It could in fact be completely unrelated to the proceedings under which I am being asked to answer questions about. Presumably she pleaded the 5th on advice from council because it is not straightforward or all encompassing.

I found an old article which in MHO seems to still be relevant and here is a quote from it:

Civil cases are different. In civil actions, however, there is no prosecutor on hand. The issue then shifts to whether "the claimant is confronted by substantial and ‘real,’ and not merely trifling or imaginary, hazards of incrimination." Marchetti v. United States , 390 U.S. 39, 453, 88 S. Ct.. 697, 705, 19 L. Ed. 2d 889 (1968). Because the privilege against self-incrimination applies only in "instances where the witness has reasonable cause to apprehend danger" of criminal liability, the deposing lawyer should assess in advance, in light of what counsel knows about the case, whether the witness has a realistic basis for such a fear. Hoffman v. United States, 341 U.S. 479, 486, (1951), quoted in U.S. v. Argomaniz, 925 F. 2d 1349 (11th Cir. 1991).

The article is a bit long but you can find it on the American Bar Association website: Business Law Today: Taking the 5th: How to pierce the testamonial shield

So, I am putting forth that pleading the 5th is an admission to guilt. It's just that when someone pleads the 5th you don't have any idea of what that guilt pertains to.

LMAO yeah, you take it as an admission of guilt.....unless it's someone on the right that invokes it right? Oh well, good thing neither you nor apdst have any power in our justice system. To that I am thankful for.
 
Sure you are, just like I am free to criticize. Don't like it, go pound sand.

You're not using a credible criticism because of your ignorance of the law.
 
tsk, tsk ,,, come on CJ ... I went back and read what Deuce was responding to and you can't have it both ways ... what you claim to be humorous is what you've been saying about the big-eared guy for some time now ... you despise the guy and you've made that clear in post after post after post .... BTW, you're the last poster who should accuse anyone of lacking a sense of humor ... Really?

Nice try - I don't despise Obama although I do despise him as President - I have no time for incompetent fools in important offices or positions. By the way, that's not humor - as for my original post, yes indeed, that's humor - all good humor has truth as its basis and often twigs the nerves of those who take themselves too seriously, like you. I'm pretty sure those I was speaking to got it even if you didn't. The fact you think I lack humor means you haven't a clue about either me or humor, making you perhaps a prime candidate as an Obama sychophant, if you aren't already.
 
Nice try - I don't despise Obama although I do despise him as President - I have no time for incompetent fools in important offices or positions. By the way, that's not humor - as for my original post, yes indeed, that's humor - all good humor has truth as its basis and often twigs the nerves of those who take themselves too seriously, like you. I'm pretty sure those I was speaking to got it even if you didn't. The fact you think I lack humor means you haven't a clue about either me or humor, making you perhaps a prime candidate as an Obama sychophant, if you aren't already.

The Libbos, who form the cult of personality that surrounds Obama are so enamored with him that they can't comprehend any criticism of him being anything but racism, or hatred.
 
So if as an employer I discriminate based on Gender, which is illegal, but I ALSO discriminate based on hair color, which is legal, then all of it's okay because my discrimination went beyond gender....?
 
You're not using a credible criticism because of your ignorance of the law.

Yes, I am. And it is not YOU to decide what is a valid criticism for ME. Go pound sand if you don't like my criticism. I am quite happy people like you have no say in our justice system. Your idea is guilty until proven innocent.
 
Yes, I am. And it is not YOU to decide what is a valid criticism for ME. Go pound sand if you don't like my criticism. I am quite happy people like you have no say in our justice system. Your idea is guilty until proven innocent.

I'm not cirticising you, sir.

We're not in a courtroom. I'm not the member of a jury. I am perfectly free to believe that Lois Lerner is guilty of a crime, because she invoked the 5th Amendment and especially since she's requested all out immunity in exchange for her testimony.
 
I'm not cirticising you, sir.

We're not in a courtroom. I'm not the member of a jury. I am perfectly free to believe that Lois Lerner is guilty of a crime, because she invoked the 5th Amendment and especially since she's requested all out immunity in exchange for her testimony.

Yes, and I am free to think you and others are nuts.
 
So if as an employer I discriminate based on Gender, which is illegal, but I ALSO discriminate based on hair color, which is legal, then all of it's okay because my discrimination went beyond gender....?
No, in fact the article says "progressive" and "occupy" were targets along with "tea party".
 
Conservative groups were not the only ones that experienced long waits as the scrutinizing went beyond what was originally thought.

WASHINGTON — In 2010, a tiny Palestinian-rights group called Minnesota Break the Bonds applied to the Internal Revenue Service for tax-exempt status. Two years and a lot of prodding later, the I.R.S. sent the group’s leaders a series of questions and requests almost identical to the ones it was sending to Tea Party groups at the time.

What are “the qualifications and experience” of Break the Bonds instructors? Does the group “present a sufficiently full and fair explanation of the relevant facts” about the West Bank and Gaza? Provide copies of pamphlets, brochures or other literature distributed at group events? Reveal all fees collected and “any voluntary contributions” made at group functions? Provide a template of petitions, postcards and any other material used to influence legislation, and a detailed accounting of the time and money spent to influence state legislators?

The controversy that erupted in May has focused on an ideological question: Were conservative groups singled out for special treatment based on their politics, or did the I.R.S. equally target liberal groups? But a closer look at the I.R.S. operation suggests that the problem was less about ideology and more about how a process instructing reviewers to “be on the lookout” for selected terms was applied to any group that mentioned certain words in its application.

(snip)


I.R.S. Scrutiny Went Beyond the Political


Still trying to justify your parties extreme corruption huh ?

Post whatever you want, it was the targeting based on the political and religious affiliation and the only legitimate story will come after the thorough investigation from the House oversight committee.
 
No, in fact the article says "progressive" and "occupy" were targets along with "tea party".

Meaning that the bureacracy was doing things that no one else knew about until peoples' rights had been violated. Well, gee what we must need is for the IRS to get even bigger...like be in control of healthcare....

This goes straight to the heart of why we need less government. The more power you give to government the more it will be corrupted by it and have the chance to abuse it.
 
Still trying to justify your parties extreme corruption huh ?

Post whatever you want, it was the targeting based on the political and religious affiliation and the only legitimate story will come after the thorough investigation from the House oversight committee.

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No, in fact the article says "progressive" and "occupy" were targets along with "tea party".

Which, to my understanding based on the little I've paid attention or really cared either way on this story, the IRS themselves have came out and states that those groups didn't receive similar scrutiny as the conservative keyword groups.
 
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