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Thread: Crisis in Egypt: Morsi and General Al-Sisi vow death

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    Re: Crisis in Egypt: Morsi and General Al-Sisi vow death

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Um. Your location says "sunny and nice", but, exactly what country are you in, again? Of course Morsi and the MB can prove inadequate to the task of turning around Egypt's state-driven rentier economy. It is probably beyond the abilities of any actor to do so. Ironically, the MB was probably actually their best bet (and a crappy bet it was, too).
    But that does not mean the people give up, no they continue to fight on for a better existence, rather than follow a failed leader. That is self preservation.

    They sure do. If that is allowed for in their Constitution.
    They sure do, weather it's allowed or not. The power of the people can change the constitution. You seem to think that because it's law that somehow that gives Morsi the right to change the constitution and turn the country into a dictatorship.

    But most Constitutions are pretty silent on the right to depose a President through the ritual of breaking things and burning buildings.
    Sure they are silent because it's meaningless, the people can oust a President by execution, a very simple act. And I might add it may be soon Morsi's head may be on a stick paraded down the streets of Egypt, makes no difference what's in the constitution. And lets not forget Morsi has done many none democratic acts as president. Meaning he is a dictator. Off with his head.

    Surprise

    Egyptian Military Ousts Morsi, Suspends Constitution

    Egyptian Military Ousts Morsi, Suspends Constitution

    Yes I do live in a place that is sunny and nice all year long.
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    Re: Crisis in Egypt: Morsi and General Al-Sisi vow death

    And also a place, I hope, that does not find an acceptable expression of rage to be the rape of nearly 100 women in the past four days. Egypt crisis: '100 women sexually assaulted in Cairo's Tahrir Square' - Telegraph

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    Re: Crisis in Egypt: Morsi and General Al-Sisi vow death

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    We know that he is unpopular. We know that millions have marched against him. The same could easily be said of our own president. Is he illegitimate? No.

    In a representative government, legitimacy is conferred by elections. Not mobs in the street. Not military coups. Free and Fair elections, one of which propelled Morsi into power. You don't have to like the result to recognize the superiority of the model to available alternatives.
    Guess what the people of Egypt suspended the constitution in favor of having a dictator destroy their country. That my friend is freedom. Freedom of the people. We have impeached our own presidents, kicked their ass out. And yes they were elected by the people, so what. It goes to show all that constitution stuff means nothing when the people have had enough of their destructive leaders. Good for the people of Egypt and down with Mosi with his head on a stick.
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    Re: Crisis in Egypt: Morsi and General Al-Sisi vow death

    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    I was of the understanding Obama was supposed to have the world love us again. Not so much in Egypt

    Doug Ross @ Journal: 15 Photos From the Tahrir Square Protests You'll Never See In Legacy Media. #Egypt #Morsi #Obama

    I would like to think that with my election and the early decisions that we've made, that you're starting to see some restoration of America's standing in the world.

    Barack Obama

    My job to the Muslim world is to communicate that the Americans are not your enemy. We sometimes make mistakes. We have not been perfect. But if you look at the track record, as you say, America was not born as a colonial power, and that the same respect and partnership that America had with the Muslim world as recently as 20 or 30 years ago, there's no reason why we can't restore that.

    Barack Obama

    Wasn't Obama going to make the world like the USA again. Instead he's created more anti-American sentiment.

    Drone strikes in Yemen and Pakistan, Bengazi, and now the Arab Spring.

    Is this Obama's "Road map for peace?"

    I wonder how Obama will spin this? Bush's fault?
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    Re: Crisis in Egypt: Morsi and General Al-Sisi vow death

    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    Guess what the people of Egypt suspended the constitution in favor of having a dictator destroy their country. That my friend is freedom.
    No, my friend, that is what our Founders referred to as "the tyranny of the mob".

    We have impeached our own presidents, kicked their ass out.
    two things :

    1. We have never kicked a president out. One upon realizing he would likely be impeached has resigned.
    2. Impeachment is a legal process. It is Constitutional. What just happened is the equivalent of if the Army had decided that the anti-war protesters authorized them to remove President Bush from power and install themselves instead.

    Good for the people of Egypt and down with Mosi with his head on a stick.
    Morsi is no jewel. But the real loser today is not Morsi, it's representative government and the rule of law.

    Look, whoever is going to take over after this will be no better able to fix Egypt's problems. They are unlikely to be able to wrest control of the economy from a now-empowered military to turn it around and provide a decent (or, at least, improving) standard of living to the Egyptian people, and they will see their numbers do the same that Morsi did. Except that now we have just established that the way to respond to no longer liking the people in charge is not to form opposition parties, develop well-thought out platforms, and contend with them for the approval of the people in the electoral process. It is instead to set buildings on fire and kill people. You think we won't see an attempted repeat of this?
    Last edited by cpwill; 07-03-13 at 09:42 PM.

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    Re: Crisis in Egypt: Morsi and General Al-Sisi vow death

    Quote Originally Posted by L0neW0lf View Post
    No he is just an unpopular legitimate leader, you are no Obama supporter yet you recognize him as your leader, no? so does the majority of Americans I presume.
    Precisely. Just as Bush was an unpopular legitimate leader in 2006-2008. In neither case does the presence of low approval numbers plus an active and large protest movement justify a military coup.

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    Re: Crisis in Egypt: Morsi and General Al-Sisi vow death

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Precisely. Just as Bush was an unpopular legitimate leader in 2006-2008. In neither case does the presence of low approval numbers plus an active and large protest movement justify a military coup.
    There was no coup in the traditional sense. Morsi is alive and free, for now. The military turned over power to the Constitutional Court. The announcement was made with support from the civilian opposition standing on the stage...
    I don't often change my signature, but this was just too over the top to let anyone forget with what this country is up against...
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    Re: Crisis in Egypt: Morsi and General Al-Sisi vow death

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Precisely. Just as Bush was an unpopular legitimate leader in 2006-2008. In neither case does the presence of low approval numbers plus an active and large protest movement justify a military coup.
    No, Bush was also a legitimate leader, so long as the people accepted and supported his position and right to be their leader then he was legitimate regardless of his popularity and approval ratings, that can't be said about Morsi whose right to be in power is no longer accepted by the majority of Egyptians.
    It is not just a large protest movement or a "mob", its the largest protest movement in Egyptian history.

    Also as I said this guy is a fraud, he did promise during his election campaign that he would step down if people demand he does as they did Mubarak, I know that politicians being liars is a universal phenomenon but that is too big of a promise to ignore.
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    Re: Crisis in Egypt: Morsi and General Al-Sisi vow death

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Precisely. Just as Bush was an unpopular legitimate leader in 2006-2008. In neither case does the presence of low approval numbers plus an active and large protest movement justify a military coup.
    Had Bush pulled the crap Morsi has, then I would have hoped that the US military would have thrown him out.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Crisis in Egypt: Morsi and General Al-Sisi vow death

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Like him or not, Morsi won in a legitimate election, and was the legitimate constitutional choice of the Egyptian people. Mobs in the street do not have a natural right to overthrown the legally expressed will of the Egyptian populace.
    There was no “constitutional choice” of the Egyptian people. The previous constitution had been suspended by the military when it removed Mubarak from power and rules were set (by the military) for how things would be handled in implementing a new constitution. Morsi disregarded those rules and immediately began to establish his own authoritarian rule through a series of illegitimate actions that included granting himself unlimited powers to “protect” the nation as well as his decree that his orders were protected from and above judicial review. In other words, he didn’t play by the rules and protests erupted at each stage of his usurping authoritarian power.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Look, I don't like Morsi, I was one of the first to say that the MB would take over and it would go badly. But what we have just established is a new standard - if you can get enough people in the streets and destroy the right amount of property, you can overturn an election and overthrow the government you don't like. We just gave everyone who can bring a mob to bear in Cairo a veto over governance.
    I guess you fail to realize that we are talking about the largest known protest in history. This was much bigger than those that ousted Mubarak, these were protests with nearly 3 million people on the streets, and ready to storm his palace to kill him if he didn’t go away. That isn’t a mob my friend, that is a nation demanding justice. That would be like 10-20 million descending upon Washington DC in protest; it has never happened. The military had no choice but to take Morsi out of power because the people would have killed him if they didn't and that would be a much worse situation than new elections for a new leader.



    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is incorrect. Morsi was always an Islamist, the people knew precisely who they were getting. He is, in fact, the only actor in this three-part play that has a claim to legitimacy.
    How naďve this view is.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    So long as they are (and Egypt's broadly were) free from fraud, yes.
    You don’t know how much fraud there was during the voting process, but the Egyptian people know how much fraud has occurred since his election. He broke the social contract and the people have decided to void that contract. That is their right.

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

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