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Thread: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

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    Sage davidtaylorjr's Avatar
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    re: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    you said no discrimination is going on, you are wrong
    this fact will not change
    I did say that you are correct. And realistically there is no discrimination. Do courts agree? Not all of them. However, just because a court says something doesn't make it so, it just makes it law, right or wrong. That being said, everyone already has the right to marry.
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    I'm kind of a big deal

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    re: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    1.)We can label anything as "equality, discrimination, and tyranny." I could go on and on about how it's tyranny to have a progressive tax system that discriminates against the wealthy by making them pay a higher percentage of their income, people vote on tax issues that do not impact them because they are in lower financial brackets.
    It's tyranny that someone is subject to a higher rate than someone else because the majority got their way politically.

    2.)I think many in the pro-SSM camp have done a fantastic job at contorting the issue by completely demonizing their opponents as if they are akin to the racists during the civil rights movement and highlighting some kind of persecution complex that people buy into. It's over-hyped.

    3.) The fact of the matter is that it's a social issue, not this equal rights issue where a minority is strongly discriminated against. No one makes gays sit in the back of the bus, it's not illegal to be gay, there aren't separate schools for gays and the enjoy the same exact rights and freedoms as every other citizen.

    4.) What some states won't do is alter and change the definition of marriage to recognize homosexual unions as a marriage because the people in that state support the traditional, default definition for our nation.

    3.)With a democracy the political minority looses, that's just how it works. In a Republic the states have rights.
    you could TRY but the trick is getting it to the courts and having them decided and when this has happened its been labled as discrimination and a violation of equality.

    2.) yes the bigotry and discrimination is made up and doesnt really exists. It is a civil rights issues and when pushed this has been the decision.

    3.) 100% wrong thats not a fact thats your opinion that has no support when actually pushed to the courts

    4.) to think gays arent discriminated against is pure ignorance and or dishonesty. saying they have the same rights and freedoms as everyone else when examples of what you say doesnt happen can be found is inane.

    5.) they will have to sooner or later equality is coming, and when this issues as reached state supreme courts its exactly what happened, the states werent allowed to discriminate.

    6.) good think we arent a complete democracy then and the fed protects our rights, the states do have rights but they dont have free reign to do what they want, thats why when pushed they lost so far.
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    re: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    no comment on my examples i gave you? interesting
    No comment on my argument ?

    Hypotheticals don't always make for strong arguments. If I get licensed as a pharmacist and move to another state why can I not use my license from the other state to work? Why can't I legal make decisions related to pharmacy practice? Do those states not recognize my legal credentials and legal license issued somewhere else? It's up to the state, if a state doesn't recognize a same sex marriage then they don't have to extend any kind of benefits or legal status to it. It's a state issue, as far as another state is concerned there is no legal validity between two men or women who are "married" somewhere else. It doesn't matter what PA does, when in SC the laws of SC govern things. Pot may be legal in Colorado, but if you bring it to another state expect a lawsuit. The other state doesn't have to recognize the laws of Colorado and give you a pass or special privileges that their citizens do not have. If the other state has laws against what you could legally do in another state then expect to have a lawsuit.

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    I'm kind of a big deal

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    re: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

    Quote Originally Posted by davidtaylorjr View Post
    I did say that you are correct.
    2.)And realistically there is no discrimination.
    3.)Do courts agree? Not all of them.
    4.)However, just because a court says something doesn't make it so, it just makes it law,
    5.) right or wrong.
    6.) That being said, everyone already has the right to marry.
    1.) i know i am, facts make it that way
    2.) realistically you are wrong
    3.) yes when the issues has actually been pushed, what you are trying to sell and nobody is buying is that the courts that didnt hear the issues and havent ruled disagree, this simply isnt true because thats not the same thing.
    4.) yes it dsoes make it so, thats exactly what happens
    5.) your opinion of right or wrong is meaningless to me and this debate and the law
    6.) false and already proven wrong when the courts actually decided on this matter. if that was true the courts couldnt have ruled it violated equality. But that didnt happen, hence you are wrong.
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    re: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    you could TRY but the trick is getting it to the courts and having them decided and when this has happened its been labled as discrimination and a violation of equality.

    2.) yes the bigotry and discrimination is made up and doesnt really exists. It is a civil rights issues and when pushed this has been the decision.

    3.) 100% wrong thats not a fact thats your opinion that has no support when actually pushed to the courts

    4.) to think gays arent discriminated against is pure ignorance and or dishonesty. saying they have the same rights and freedoms as everyone else when examples of what you say doesnt happen can be found is inane.

    5.) they will have to sooner or later equality is coming, and when this issues as reached state supreme courts its exactly what happened, the states werent allowed to discriminate.

    6.) good think we arent a complete democracy then and the fed protects our rights, the states do have rights but they dont have free reign to do what they want, thats why when pushed they lost so far.
    Please don't categorize what I said into points, that's not what I posted. Also, don't misrepresent what I said because it's convenient for you. I am not claiming that bigotry and discrimination is made up for doesn't exist. There are plenty of people on the pro-SSM side that are bigots and discriminatory against those who are against it and visa versa. Although the fact remains that it's a social issue discussing changing a civil right. So, you say I'm 100% wrong on the fact of the matter being that SSM is a social issue and disprove that with your opinion that it's an equal rights issue? When pushed into courts it seems that it is the state's right to define marriage either way In my state SSM is banned, DOMA is unconstitutional largely because it prevents legal couples in states that legalize SSM to receive federal benefits. I also never claimed that gays are never discriminated against, what I did say is that it's far overplayed and over-hyped.

    Your post is dishonest, you are applying things to my argument that I never said, argued, or believed.

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    re: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I do care about freedom and liberty, that's why I respect the rights of those who disagree with me and recognize the issue as a social issue that, those who disagree with me on, can have their votes heard and put into legal action. People are free to vote on issues, they have the liberty to believe what they want and have the democratic process change laws. Forcing same sex marriage is not a constitutional right, the default definition is that marriage is between a man and woman. The law has to change to accommodate for same sex marriages and have the term of "marriage" be redefined. It's a social issue discussing changing a legal definition, and on such a change people can have their voices heard and their votes cast like with other issues.
    "People are free to vote on issues, they have the liberty to believe what they want and have the democratic process change laws."

    Yet, just because they engaged in a democratic process doesn't suddenly nullify the fact that they are infringing upon the liberty and freedom of others. Whether it is done by the barrel of a gun or at the ballot box, infringing on liberty and freedom is still just that, infringing on liberty and freedom.

    "Forcing same sex marriage is not a constitutional right, the default definition is that marriage is between a man and woman."

    Well, that has been changed quite recently with the SCOTUS ruling and that doesn't change the fact that people should still have the freedom to marry whomever they want (given of course it is consensual and everyone is of legal age). Thus, with this most recent SCOTUS ruling, "The law has to change[d] to accommodate for same sex marriages and [has allowed[ the term of 'marriage' [to] be redefined."
    "And in the end, we were all just humans, drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness."

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    re: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) i know i am, facts make it that way
    2.) realistically you are wrong
    3.) yes when the issues has actually been pushed, what you are trying to sell and nobody is buying is that the courts that didnt hear the issues and havent ruled disagree, this simply isnt true because thats not the same thing.
    4.) yes it dsoes make it so, thats exactly what happens
    5.) your opinion of right or wrong is meaningless to me and this debate and the law
    6.) false and already proven wrong when the courts actually decided on this matter. if that was true the courts couldnt have ruled it violated equality. But that didnt happen, hence you are wrong.
    So if the courts suddenly ruled one day that murder was ok you would agree that that makes murder ok? Obviously it would be law, but would the courts be right? That is essentially what you just argued.
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.

    Ronald Reagan

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    re: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

    No more so than states having different "qualifications" for the right to keep and bear arms is, or basing their state taxation system on income verses sales. What you advocate is that all states must now adhere to some uniform (federal?) standard, simply because it affects treatment under a federal law.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    re: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

    Quote Originally Posted by davidtaylorjr View Post
    So if the courts suddenly ruled one day that murder was ok you would agree that that makes murder ok? Obviously it would be law, but would the courts be right? That is essentially what you just argued.
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    re: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    No comment on my argument ?

    1.)Hypotheticals don't always make for strong arguments.

    2.) If I get licensed as a pharmacist and move to another state why can I not use my license from the other state to work?
    3.) Why can't I legal make decisions related to pharmacy practice?
    4.) Do those states not recognize my legal credentials and legal license issued somewhere else?
    5.) It's up to the state, if a state doesn't recognize a same sex marriage then they don't have to extend any kind of benefits or legal status to it. It's a state issue, as far as another state is concerned there is no legal validity between two men or women who are "married" somewhere else. It doesn't matter what PA does, when in SC the laws of SC govern things.

    6.) Pot may be legal in Colorado, but if you bring it to another state expect a lawsuit. The other state doesn't have to recognize the laws of Colorado and give you a pass or special privileges that their citizens do not have. If the other state has laws against what you could legally do in another state then expect to have a lawsuit.
    1.)are you tryign to deflect now and say my example is unrelaistic or 100s of others just like it are unrelaistic? i hipe not because that would be silly and further expose your stance

    2.) this is not a marriage contract and is not the same thing at all so it instantly fails but lets go further is is your licenses seen by the fed AND do you have the option of getting a licences. Has there been any court cases that have ruled this inequality? is this a civil rights or rights issue?

    all these things make your example meaningless

    3&4.) see 2

    5.) again when pushed the courts disagree with your opinion
    answer the question do you think its right if your wife dies or was in the hospital in a state that didnt recognize your marriage to not let you see her, notify you of her death or let you make medical decisions

    6.) please stop with the meaningless examples. are you comparing pot to marriage? this is just nonsensical and intellectual dishonest.
    WHat 1000+ benefits and rights does smoking pot grant you? what federal protections does smoking pot grant you. seriously quit, you are better than this.
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