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Thread: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

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    re: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    So what you are saying is that you are alright with the tyranny of the majority even though it infringes on the freedom and liberty of others?
    No, what I'm fine with is people voting and having their beliefs put into law on social issues. I view it as tyranny to override that process because a minority didn't get their way in some states.

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    re: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    There is equal rights, the people in states that voted and support SSM bans have every right to do so. SSM is not this over-hyped "equal rights" mantra that many want to push. It's a social issue that redefines legal marriage that people can support or not support and have those beliefs upheld in law.
    again when pushed courts dont seem to agree with you

    eventually the discrimination will fail, all it is gonna take is some court cases and pushing the issue

    for example if im married to my wife in PA and we are granted all the state and federal rights but then she is traveling in SC and gets in a car accident is it right for them not to notify me to make medical decesions if that state does recognize my marriage?
    what if she dies? can they just not tell me since they dont see us as married?
    of if i go there to i not have visitation rights since in that state we arent married?
    etc etc etc

    it will be cases like these and 1000 other possibilities that will end stat discrimination and it will be even easier with the fall of DOMA.

    Granting equal rights is coming soon, it may not be around the corner but ending doma and granting federal rights is the foundation and launching pad. When its pushed the courts will have trouble ruling any other way.
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    re: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

    Quote Originally Posted by davidtaylorjr View Post
    Actually you agreed with me. I never said SOME courts disagree. But it is not the law of the land, just some leftist states.
    you said no discrimination is going on, you are wrong
    this fact will not change
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    re: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    again when pushed courts dont seem to agree with you

    eventually the discrimination will fail, all it is gonna take is some court cases and pushing the issue

    for example if im married to my wife in PA and we are granted all the state and federal rights but then she is traveling in SC and gets in a car accident is it right for them not to notify me to make medical decesions if that state does recognize my marriage?
    what if she dies? can they just not tell me since they dont see us as married?
    of if i go there to i not have visitation rights since in that state we arent married?
    etc etc etc

    it will be cases like these and 1000 other possibilities that will end stat discrimination and it will be even easier with the fall of DOMA.

    Granting equal rights is coming soon, it may not be around the corner but ending doma and granting federal rights is the foundation and launching pad. When its pushed the courts will have trouble ruling any other way.
    The courts did not reverse the bans in states that have legal traditional marriage. Largely the courts did agree with me, I wanted DOMA struck down because it prevented federal marriage benefits from states that legalize SSM. I have supported that SSM is a state issue and that it's appropriate either way to redefine marriage to include SSM or to uphold the traditional definition of marriage and not recognize same sex relationships.

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    re: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    No, what I'm fine with is people voting and having their beliefs put into law on social issues. I view it as tyranny to override that process because a minority didn't get their way in some states.
    its not ok voting on equality, discrimination, rights etc and thats why when pushed these votes are thrown out and its exactly the opposite of tyranny.
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    re: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    1.)The courts did not reverse the bans in states that have legal traditional marriage.
    2.) Largely the courts did agree with me
    3.) I wanted DOMA struck down because it prevented federal marriage benefits from states that legalize SSM.
    4.) I have supported that SSM is a state issue and that it's appropriate either way to redefine marriage to include SSM or to uphold the traditional definition of marriage and not recognize same sex relationships.
    1.) actually they(some state supreme courts) have in a few cases when the issue was pushed, SCOTUS didnt just do that recently because that was not the argument presented to them, huge difference
    2.) no because what you are saying wasnt being heard (states right to discriminate)
    3.) good for you, it needed struck down
    4.) but it s simply not and once pushed it will fail as a state issue and this is already slowly happening when this specific issue is pushed to the courts
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    re: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    again when pushed courts dont seem to agree with you

    eventually the discrimination will fail, all it is gonna take is some court cases and pushing the issue

    for example if im married to my wife in PA and we are granted all the state and federal rights but then she is traveling in SC and gets in a car accident is it right for them not to notify me to make medical decesions if that state does recognize my marriage?
    what if she dies? can they just not tell me since they dont see us as married?
    of if i go there to i not have visitation rights since in that state we arent married?
    etc etc etc


    it will be cases like these and 1000 other possibilities that will end stat discrimination and it will be even easier with the fall of DOMA.

    Granting equal rights is coming soon, it may not be around the corner but ending doma and granting federal rights is the foundation and launching pad. When its pushed the courts will have trouble ruling any other way.
    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    The courts did not reverse the bans in states that have legal traditional marriage. Largely the courts did agree with me, I wanted DOMA struck down because it prevented federal marriage benefits from states that legalize SSM. I have supported that SSM is a state issue and that it's appropriate either way to redefine marriage to include SSM or to uphold the traditional definition of marriage and not recognize same sex relationships.




    no comment on my examples i gave you? interesting
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    re: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    No, what I'm fine with is people voting and having their beliefs put into law on social issues. I view it as tyranny to override that process because a minority didn't get their way in some states.
    Why should people's freedoms and liberties be decided by others? The only way in which people should have curbs on their freedoms is if those actions were to infringe on the liberty of others (eg rape, murder, and the like). By putting people's freedoms and rights up to the people, what you are doing is effectively showing that you do not care about freedom or liberty for individuals and would welcome a tyranny of the majority.
    "And in the end, we were all just humans, drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness."

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    re: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    its not ok voting on equality, discrimination, rights etc and thats why when pushed these votes are thrown out and its exactly the opposite of tyranny.
    We can label anything as "equality, discrimination, and tyranny." I could go on and on about how it's tyranny to have a progressive tax system that discriminates against the wealthy by making them pay a higher percentage of their income, people vote on tax issues that do not impact them because they are in lower financial brackets. It's tyranny that someone is subject to a higher rate than someone else because the majority got their way politically. I think many in the pro-SSM camp have done a fantastic job at contorting the issue by completely demonizing their opponents as if they are akin to the racists during the civil rights movement and highlighting some kind of persecution complex that people buy into. It's over-hyped. The fact of the matter is that it's a social issue, not this equal rights issue where a minority is strongly discriminated against. No one makes gays sit in the back of the bus, it's not illegal to be gay, there aren't separate schools for gays and the enjoy the same exact rights and freedoms as every other citizen. What some states won't do is alter and change the definition of marriage to recognize homosexual unions as a marriage because the people in that state support the traditional, default definition for our nation.

    With a democracy the political minority looses, that's just how it works. In a Republic the states have rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    Why should people's freedoms and liberties be decided by others? The only way in which people should have curbs on their freedoms is if those actions were to infringe on the liberty of others (eg rape, murder, and the like). By putting people's freedoms and rights up to the people, what you are doing is effectively showing that you do not care about freedom or liberty for individuals and would welcome a tyranny of the majority.
    I do care about freedom and liberty, that's why I respect the rights of those who disagree with me and recognize the issue as a social issue that, those who disagree with me on, can have their votes heard and put into legal action. People are free to vote on issues, they have the liberty to believe what they want and have the democratic process change laws. Forcing same sex marriage is not a constitutional right, the default definition is that marriage is between a man and woman. The law has to change to accommodate for same sex marriages and have the term of "marriage" be redefined. It's a social issue discussing changing a legal definition, and on such a change people can have their voices heard and their votes cast like with other issues.
    Last edited by digsbe; 07-02-13 at 10:59 AM.

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    re: After DOMA, gay couples still would not receive many federal benefits. [W:345]

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    The courts did not reverse the bans in states that have legal traditional marriage. Largely the courts did agree with me, I wanted DOMA struck down because it prevented federal marriage benefits from states that legalize SSM. I have supported that SSM is a state issue and that it's appropriate either way to redefine marriage to include SSM or to uphold the traditional definition of marriage and not recognize same sex relationships.
    interesting question ... if a state wants to deny certain rights to certain groups, should they be able to do that? For example, suppose a state wants to give restaurant owners the right to deny service to black customers, should they be able to do that?

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