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Thread: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

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    Re: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    Link please.
    While arson is always suspected, we've had 100+ weather for the last few weeks with no rain at all. It does not take much for a fire to get started. Aside from arson, there is always the risk of stupidity at play as well. People who toss cigaret butts out of their pickups should be shot with their own sidearm.

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    Re: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    Link please.
    One of many: McCain links some of Arizona fires to illegal immigrants

    Not saying this one was though. Just making a point about the high number of fires we're seeing every summer, which are trending upward.

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    Re: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    One of many: McCain links some of Arizona fires to illegal immigrants

    Not saying this one was though. Just making a point about the high number of fires we're seeing every summer, which are trending upward.
    would you care to argue that the number of fires is higher then normal?

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    Re: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman909 View Post
    I find this insinuating comment insulting to the courage of these brave young men, who put themselves between YOUR homes and property and the danger of a horrible blaze. Shame on you!
    It's not an insult whatsoever, just a comment and one that should be explored. That many getting trapped is not a normal event in any sense. Clearly, someone made a bad decision and in that more towards success than safety. The question is "why?"

    An analogy would be "The Crocodile Hunter" who appears to have come to believe he is just too tough to die. MOST people with a stingray spike in his chest would not do the he-man thing and just rip it out to show he's tough. Another example is someone gets some degree in martial arts and then decides he's tough - leading to some street fighter beating the crap of him. I saw that happen many times. Publicly declaring someone to be great can lead to taking greater risks than otherwise would.

    Fame of being skilled and tough becoming part of a person's self perception can be dangerous. The publicity may have lead someone in the decision process to error towards getting the job done, rather than safety. Clearly that error was made. The question is "why?"

    There is nothing insulting in such a comment. What would seem insulting it is gratuitously lament their deaths and then everything just goes on without anyone bothering to ask how the hell did this happen? Who screwed up and why?" Psychology may play a part in that.

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    Re: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

    Number of fires per year and acres burned vary from year to year. Here is some links to fire stats.

    National Interagency Fire Center

    http://gacc.nifc.gov/swcc/predictive...uppression.pdf

    http://www.nifc.gov/nicc/sitreprt.pdf

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    Re: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    Let me start of by saying my wife's cousin worked for the Prescott Fire Department and was a Hot Shot with the department until last year and since moved on to better things. So it's big deal to my wife and her family as they knew most of them. I barely remember meeting them at barbecues. So I am not being rude, insensitive or anything like that with what I am about to say.

    Okay.. two issues.. 1) They were close to best of the best but Smokejumpers are the best of the best when it comes to wildfires. But no big deal it can be confusing.

    2) Weren't you one of those I was arguing with about knowledge and how it shouldn't be free (my position) because training and certification is very important? You said having an AST cert didn't mean you were a good mechanic or something to that effect? These guys were highly trained (years of it) and despite their training they couldn't survive. Yet if these guys (and gals) didn't exist and didn't have exclusive training you'd have hundreds of deaths a year from the average joe learning on the fly.
    It was likely me, as I don't believe certification for MOST jobs should be required. You either know the stuff, or you don't. Where or how I came across the know how is irrelevant. Does it matter if a fire fighter had some form of formal training at an accredited school for such, or the son of a fire fighter learned everything from his dad? What matters is what the person knows, and accreditation is absolutely no measure of this. If you want to pursue this discussion, make a new thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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    Re: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    It's not an insult whatsoever, just a comment and one that should be explored. That many getting trapped is not a normal event in any sense. Clearly, someone made a bad decision and in that more towards success than safety. The question is "why?"

    An analogy would be "The Crocodile Hunter" who appears to have come to believe he is just too tough to die. MOST people with a stingray spike in his chest would not do the he-man thing and just rip it out to show he's tough. Another example is someone gets some degree in martial arts and then decides he's tough - leading to some street fighter beating the crap of him. I saw that happen many times. Publicly declaring someone to be great can lead to taking greater risks than otherwise would.

    Fame of being skilled and tough becoming part of a person's self perception can be dangerous. The publicity may have lead someone in the decision process to error towards getting the job done, rather than safety. Clearly that error was made. The question is "why?"

    There is nothing insulting in such a comment. What would seem insulting it is gratuitously lament their deaths and then everything just goes on without anyone bothering to ask how the hell did this happen? Who screwed up and why?" Psychology may play a part in that.
    You obviously know little about what can happen in a brush/forest fire in the desert. How did it happen? You can get 50+MHP wind gusts and changes in wind direction in a matter of seconds. The desert is hot and dry and just ready to burst at any time. This is what can happen and they knew it but they went to do their job. You want to blame someone??? Would you like to implement laws against high winds in the desert? Because that is how stupid you sound. They didn't screw up. Would very much like to see anyone who would even suggest they were grand-standing because of the coverage they were getting, or that someone is to blame for this tragedy go out and do what they do for 5 mins, and see if you would still sing the same absolutely idiotic tune as what you are singing here.

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    Re: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    would you care to argue that the number of fires is higher then normal?
    Would you care to argue that the temperature in the last few weeks has been higher than average? Speculation is a sign of a lack of facts.

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    Re: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    One of many: McCain links some of Arizona fires to illegal immigrants

    Not saying this one was though. Just making a point about the high number of fires we're seeing every summer, which are trending upward.
    I'd be more inclined to link it to climate change.

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    Re: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    I'd be more inclined to link it to climate change.
    So an extra degree, and things just spontaneously combust?

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