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Thread: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

  1. #21
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    Re: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    In dry seasons around here, constant deliberate control-fire are an absolute must. There are hundreds of thousands of acres highly inaccessible and with literally a couple foot deep layer of dry dead palm prawns, branches, leaves, dead grass, branches, pine needles with then the dried upper grown grass and bushes too. If that gets going by a fire, usually caused by lightling storms, the fire is intense and difficult to reach if not impossible.

    For this, every year, there is a bulldozed maze of fire lanes for access - which double somewhat as fire slow-downs. However, there also are continuous controlled burns too to limit how much a fire can spread - as fire won't burn thru an already burned out patch. Yet the areas so diverse and government owned, no one complains.

    In California and apparently Arizona and other areas, homeowners don't what patches of wildland near THEIR houses control burned. As a result, there will always be "out of control" and enormous wildfires there. Fighting fire with fire is a necessity, and when denied the result WILL be massive fires and lose of life and property.

    If one studies nature without human intervention, fire is a natural cycle both to prevent catastrophic mass fires and for new growth and new life. But no one with a house in the hills or mountains wants to see a patch of burned land while driving home, so this isn't done - and the consequences 100% predictable later - a worse, more destructive and more deadly fires.
    Some have practiced firewise methods. Some have not.

    Fire is natural, yet you must consider the ecosystem. There are fire dependent (lodgepole, ponderosa pine) and there are fire independent (sonorana desert). systems.

    Many lower elevation areas of AZ are fire independent. Fire historically did not play a role. One of the reasons these areas are buring is due to the introduction of exotic species (cheatgrass, red brome, salt cedar) when the west was settled. These exotics are fire dependent. They thrive after burning and can outcompete native independent vegetation. So fire is natural. It just has a different role depending on the vegetation.

    As far as firewise. People should do more to protect their homes. This does not deflect from the tragic loss of firefighters.

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    Re: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Makes sense. And I hope you're right -- that they died from lack of oxygen. I think they'd know that -- because if they were found in their tents, that's what it would indicate I think. I don't care how "protected" one would believe they'd be in their tent, when the pain from the flames became too severe, they'd be on their feet running. I think that makes me feel better. Gads.

    I hope this gives pause to firefighting strategy. ?? The reporters did say that the reason they were there at all was to save homes -- although I'm sure they were trying to contain the fire more than anything. I'd think fire containment could be fought from the air. ?? (Listen to Armchair Firefighting Quarterback MaggieD.)
    Some of them died in their tents. Some did not. It was a firestorm (no not the movie with Howie Long) but basically conflagration. They are trained not to run as you can't outrun a firestorm/conflagration. It's dig hole to give you some air between you and your tent and pray.

    At the time they were clearing an exit.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    ... being featured on TV may have lead them psychologically to take more risks then normal to prove/believing how good they are. ....
    I find this insinuating comment insulting to the courage of these brave young men, who put themselves between YOUR homes and property and the danger of a horrible blaze. Shame on you!

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    Re: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman909 View Post
    I find this insinuating comment insulting to the courage of these brave young men, who put themselves between YOUR homes and property and the danger of a horrible blaze. Shame on you!
    But it does happen.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman909 View Post
    Arizona is a very sad place today
    Not just Arizona, sigh.

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    Re: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    But it does happen.
    These men, in this situation, followed protocol to the letter. They took no more risks than what was expected of them when they took the job. Fires are unpredictable and this one was no different. They knew that, but went out to do their job, which is what they trained to do. Many had families and people to go home to. The implication of grand-standing is disgusting.

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    Re: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    I know, I was just making a point.

    There are many who believe that fires in Arizona are started intentionally in order to distract authorities while illegal immigrants are crossing borders and making their way through the state.
    Link please.

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    Re: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    Some of them died in their tents. Some did not. It was a firestorm (no not the movie with Howie Long) but basically conflagration. They are trained not to run as you can't outrun a firestorm/conflagration. It's dig hole to give you some air between you and your tent and pray.

    At the time they were clearing an exit.
    From Fox News:

    "One of the last fail-safe methods that a firefighter can do under those conditions is literally to dig as much as they can down and cover themselves with a protective -- kinda looks like a foil type -- fire-resistant material -- with the desire, the hope at least, is that the fire will burn over the top of them and they can survive it," Fraijo said Sunday.

    "Under certain conditions there's usually only sometimes a 50 percent chance that they survive," he said. "It's an extreme measure that's taken under the absolute worst conditions." Out-of-control Arizona wildfire kills 19 firefighters, including nearly all of elite Hotshot crew | Fox News

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    Re: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

    How can people argue over threads like these? Everyone should be united in their grief, with little else needing to be said on the matter at this early stage.

    Paul
    RIP THE EUROPEAN FORUM 2016

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    Re: 19 firefighters killed in Arizona wildfire were part of elite Hotshot crew

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    I know, I was just making a point.

    There are many who believe that fires in Arizona are started intentionally in order to distract authorities while illegal immigrants are crossing borders and making their way through the state.
    this is mainly an issue/topic around the border with Mexico. You should research more before making broad statements. This also is not the time to be discussing illegal immigration.

    The Yarnell Hill fire was reported as lightning caused.

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