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Thread: House says IRS official waived rights, contempt possible

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    Re: House says IRS official waived rights, contempt possible

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    The idea that there can be a "no backsies" on the 5th amendment is goddamned stupid.
    If Ms. Lerner had competent counsel, then they would have told her that the 5th means don't speak after invoking this protection....She can't have her cake, and eat it too.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: House says IRS official waived rights, contempt possible

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    But if you give a statement which included I did nothing wrong before pleading the 5th, you waived your right. You've given an affirmative statement. Thus they can question you on those statements. They could ask her, what do you mean by "I did nothing wrong".
    I understand what you are saying here, but her 9 separate affirmative statements came after she invoked the 5th, rendering her attempt to invoke useless. You can't say 'I refuse to incriminate myself, but I am innocent, and I wasn't involved, etc, etc....'
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: House says IRS official waived rights, contempt possible

    the obvious is being ignored
    it is to hard to believe that her lawyers where that stupid to allow her to do that. pleading the 5th is one of the first things you learn in law school
    so the only logical explanation is she and her lawyers knew exactly what they are doing. she wanted to be forced to testify under the rule of law so she could cut a deal and not look like a traitor to her coworkers and bosses
    it is a way to get immunity and save face

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    Re: House says IRS official waived rights, contempt possible

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    The idea that there can be a "no backsies" on the 5th amendment is goddamned stupid.
    Not as stupid as the federal personnel policy that gives you full pay to do nothing (administrative leave) because you did nothing wrong. The 5th amendment is applicable to a criminal charge/trial, not for conversations with/questions from your boss. When your boss asks you what you have been up to, on the job, you should not have the right to clam up after simply saying "I did nothing wrong".
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: House says IRS official waived rights, contempt possible

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    But if you give a statement which included I did nothing wrong before pleading the 5th, you waived your right. You've given an affirmative statement. Thus they can question you on those statements. They could ask her, what do you mean by "I did nothing wrong".
    Hey look, another so-called libertarian who is siding with the government on the 5th amendment. Coincidentally, the person being questioned works for a Democrat.

    Here's the thing with the 5th amendment. I can waive it by talking, but I should be able to invoke it at any time to stop talking for any reason. Yes, the IRS official waived the 5th amendment and then invoked it again. The Supreme Court just ruled way, way wrong on this bull**** too when they allowed a criminal suspect's silence to be used as evidence of guilt because he didn't say the magic words out loud. Looking for a police state, America? That's a good place to start.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Not as stupid as the federal personnel policy that gives you full pay to do nothing (administrative leave) because you did nothing wrong. The 5th amendment is applicable to a criminal charge/trial, not for conversations with/questions from your boss. When your boss asks you what you have been up to, on the job, you should not have the right to clam up after simply saying "I did nothing wrong".
    Trying to compare this to a private employer "having a conversation" is ridiculous.
    Last edited by Deuce; 06-29-13 at 09:49 AM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: House says IRS official waived rights, contempt possible

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I understand what you are saying here, but her 9 separate affirmative statements came after she invoked the 5th, rendering her attempt to invoke useless. You can't say 'I refuse to incriminate myself, but I am innocent, and I wasn't involved, etc, etc....'
    Why is there "no backsies" on a fundamental right against self-incrimination?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: House says IRS official waived rights, contempt possible

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Not as stupid as the federal personnel policy that gives you full pay to do nothing (administrative leave) because you did nothing wrong.
    No sweat. For the governmnet money grows on trees.

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    Re: House says IRS official waived rights, contempt possible

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Hey look, another so-called libertarian who is siding with the government on the 5th amendment. Coincidentally, the person being questioned works for a Democrat.

    Here's the thing with the 5th amendment. I can waive it by talking, but I should be able to invoke it at any time to stop talking for any reason. Yes, the IRS official waived the 5th amendment and then invoked it again. The Supreme Court just ruled way, way wrong on this bull**** too when they allowed a criminal suspect's silence to be used as evidence of guilt because he didn't say the magic words out loud. Looking for a police state, America? That's a good place to start.
    Had you read the Supreme Court ruling, you would know the guy wasn't under questioning. If he was under actual police questioning, then his silence would be an implicit invocation of his right not to self incriminate.

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    Re: House says IRS official waived rights, contempt possible

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Why is there "no backsies" on a fundamental right against self-incrimination?
    Talk to a lawyer Deuce, you seem to be having trouble with that pesky part of remaining silent after invoking the 5th.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: House says IRS official waived rights, contempt possible

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Not over something that simple. It's not like the answer will be "well, I didn't do anything wrong in regard to all those people breaking the rules whose names and emails I have".

    Ah, ha! Gotcha!


    :rolleyes
    You don't seem to understand this. Let me try to help. When you make an affirmative statement, you open yourself up to cross examination regarding that statement. And you don't have the right to silence when being cross examined over a statement YOU made. Because she said she did NOTHING wrong, she actually opened herself up to questioning about everything. If asked, "Did you use a manager's password to access information", you can't take the 5th because you will be directed to answer since this is a direct cross examination and challenge to the statement you already made that you did nothing wrong. Same would go for virtually ANY question about wrongdoing. What remains to be seen is whether they'll hold her feet to the fire. The fire is lit and they have the power to do it.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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