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Thread: Ecuador's president to U.S.: Don't threaten us on Snowden case

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    Re: Ecuador Stands Up To US

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    If you really consider what Snowden did to be a crime, that suggests that you do not know the difference between right and wrong.

    The question becomes, how is it a crime, how is it wrong, to expose the crimes of government?
    I didn't say it was right or wrong. I said it was a crime. It was illegal. People who get security clearances sign a contract not to reveal the classified information. The law specifies punishment for those who do. Very straightforward. Not a question of right and wrong. A matter of law.

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    Re: Ecuador Stands Up To US

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell View Post
    Yes, setting back intelligence gathering doesn't directly hurt anybody.
    I have no problem gathering information on known terrorists. At the same time, I oppose programs that target the general public.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
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    Re: Ecuador Stands Up To US

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell View Post
    Snowden hasn't done anything for me, he deserves to go to jail because he betrayed his country. Oleg Gordievsky deserves to be prison because he betrayed the USSR. If you can betray your country proudly then you can accept the penalties instead of running.
    What should be done about James Clapper?
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
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    Re: Ecuador's president to U.S.: Don't threaten us on Snowden case

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    Yeah, that'll teach us!

    Are they still closing newspapers and throwing reports in jail in Ecuador? Snowden should fit right in.
    Do you think those who opposed the Iraq War actually supported Saddam's policies? Of course not. They supported national sovereignty just as I am supporting it here.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
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    Re: Ecuador Stands Up To US

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    He's a traitor who ran off to Russia instead of standing on principle. God knows what damage he's done to the United States during his stay in Moscow. I remain stunned at the number of people who consider this piece of garbage a hero.
    All heroes have their detractors. You really see any scenario where the US govt gets a win out of this?
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

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    Re: Ecuador Stands Up To US

    Of course not. Unlike some on here, however, I take no pleasure in U.S. 'defeats' or in the notion that people are visiting Russia and disclosing secret information.
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    Re: Ecuador Stands Up To US

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    If you really consider what Snowden did to be a crime, that suggests that you do not know the difference between right and wrong.

    The question becomes, how is it a crime, how is it wrong, to expose the crimes of government?
    I believe that what he has done is against the law, but to your point there are several related considerations...

    1. Is the law correct? Constitutionally correct, I mean.
    2. If the law is not correct, then don't people have an obligation to challenge it?
    3. If they have an obligation to challenge it, what form should the challenge take? Given the government's desire to have absolute control in matters like this, it's not unreasonable to expect that one would be essentially squashed to such a degree that their protest would never see the light of day, and hence be brushed under the rug. As such, it's not unreasonable to seek out alternative methods.
    4. In short, I'm sorry, but sometimes one has to do what one has to do.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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    Re: Ecuador Stands Up To US

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    In short, I'm sorry, but sometimes one has to do what one has to do.
    Sure, as long as one understands the risks involved. Snowden is young and naive. He was probably surprised when he discovered corruption in government. With a few more years under his belt he would have understood that corruption is everywhere and not given it a second thought. That's the way government expects it to be. Now they have to deal with a renegade and they will do so.

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    Re: Ecuador Stands Up To US

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    I didn't say it was right or wrong. I said it was a crime. It was illegal. People who get security clearances sign a contract not to reveal the classified information. The law specifies punishment for those who do. Very straightforward. Not a question of right and wrong. A matter of law.
    Call me a romantic idealist, but I would like to think that our laws criminalize actions that are wrong. Which is to say that our laws do NOT criminalize actions that are right and moral.

    I find it wrong that the government, with the assistance of Booz Allen, violates the Fourth Amendment as a regular and widespread practice. I think the Fourth should be respected, along with the rest of the USC.

    So while it is true that Snowden has broken some petty law, by defending the larger principle of constitutional governance, his transgression is easily forgiven.

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    Re: Ecuador Stands Up To US

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    I believe that what he has done is against the law, but to your point there are several related considerations...

    1. Is the law correct? Constitutionally correct, I mean.
    2. If the law is not correct, then don't people have an obligation to challenge it?
    3. If they have an obligation to challenge it, what form should the challenge take? Given the government's desire to have absolute control in matters like this, it's not unreasonable to expect that one would be essentially squashed to such a degree that their protest would never see the light of day, and hence be brushed under the rug. As such, it's not unreasonable to seek out alternative methods.
    4. In short, I'm sorry, but sometimes one has to do what one has to do.
    You are quite right. Your post reminds me of my namesake HD Thoreau's point that we all have an obligation to Civil Disobedience when the law is illegitimate or poor. Our civic duty demands that we nullify through the jury process or disobey through disobedience those lousy laws that government insists on passing.

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