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SCOTUS blog: DOMA Unconstitutional

mac said:
Actually, history shows that these types of things fluctuate up and down.
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Actually, history does not show that. It shows that some issues fluctuate, some have rather linear social acceptance.
 
yobarnacle said:
I'm not having a problem with the US military.

I'm a Viet Nam vet.

I don't WANT the USA to fall apart.

I'm concerned that the road to perdition the USA is traveling WILL destroy the USA.

My point is, socialists CAN NOT STEAL this country.

Not while we have arms. and they obviously KNOW this, since they strive mightily to disarm us. THAT ain't happening.
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Where are these Socialists that you are talking about?

Who are these Socialists that you are talking about?
 
Redress said:
Actually, history does not show that. It shows that some issues fluctuate, some have rather linear social acceptance.
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Right, some fluctuate. History shows this.

:shrug:
 
mac said:
Right, some fluctuate. History shows this.

:shrug:
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Which is not what you said, and kinda renders your point invalid.
 
roguenuke said:
Not these types of issues. History shows no such thing. History shows us that when it comes to what is considered "rights" for groups of people, support only increases until it reaches point, well above 90% support, where change beyond that is going to go very slow if it happens at all. But it is not likely to turn back.

This issue is nothing like abortion, and I know that is the issue many want to use in comparison. This issue is like interracial marriage, as far as being able to compare it to an issue like it in the past.
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Really, not these types? It appears that at different points in history, SSM was deemed perfectly acceptable, then it wasn't, then it was...
 
Redress said:
Which is not what you said, and kinda renders your point invalid.
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Not so much. In the grand scheme of acceptance of social issues....acceptance/opposition fluctuates. As it has with SSM.
 
shrubnose said:
Where are these Socialists that you are talking about?

Who are these Socialists that you are talking about?
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The socialists (progressives) have taken over the democrat party and led all the willing "liberals" by the nose. THAT's the socialists I'm talking about!
 
mac said:
Not so much. In the grand scheme of acceptance of social issues....acceptance/opposition fluctuates. As it has with SSM.
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Not true. Some issues do fluctuate, many do not. SSM has not fluctuated, and acceptance has been going in only one direction.
 
mac said:
Really, not these types? It appears that at different points in history, SSM was deemed perfectly acceptable, then it wasn't, then it was...
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In different societies, with different types of governments and a different culture. It requires a major cultural shift to change it, and it isn't so much a shift in public opinion, but a shift in power forcing people to change whether they want to or not. You are describing power shifts/changes to laws forcing public opinion shifts, not public opinion shifts changing the laws.
 
Redress said:
Not true. Some issues do fluctuate, many do not. SSM has not fluctuated, and acceptance has been going in only one direction.
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Attitudes on SSM have certainly fluctuated for and against throughout history.
 
roguenuke said:
In different societies, with different types of governments and a different culture. It requires a major cultural shift to change it, and it isn't so much a shift in public opinion, but a shift in power forcing people to change whether they want to or not. You are describing power shifts/changes to laws forcing public opinion shifts, not public opinion shifts changing the laws.
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What I am describing is historical shifts in attitudes.
 
mac said:
What I am describing is historical shifts in attitudes.
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You can't compare different cultures and claim there was shift. They were different cultures. The major shift in the culture to distinguish it from another in itself is going to be such a big influence that it causes problems in the comparison. It would be much more difficult now for a single person or small group to gain enough power over a nation now to cause such a huge shift in culture that leads to less acceptance.

You must look at the reason for when changes occur and why exactly they will occur to determine if they are likely to occur for us. From what we know, homosexuality is only going to become more accepted in our culture unless some huge cultural shift itself occurs, making more people convert to a religion that discriminates against homosexuals/same sex relationships.

Along with this, over time, it has been shown that people, as a group, tend to age comparable to how a person ages. It is like our species, the older it gets, the wiser it gets. The more it learns to think for itself. The more knowledge we acquire, the less willing we are to maintain old prejudices. We learn what makes us different. We connect more with those who are different and discover that those differences aren't all that important. These things are taught to our children.
 
yobarnacle said:
"My argument is, what happens, has ALWAYS happened, to societies that DID and WHEN it accepted homosexuality. "
________________________________________________________________________________________________________

"And that's an appeal to tradition logical fallacy which doesn't pass the logic test."

Logic test? It's history. What logic test?

I've given you a couple of studies, and there are at least dozens, showing symptoms shared by societies in decline, failing, falling.

History has been studied longer than psychology! :)
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Do you know what the appeal to tradition logical fallacy is? Here... let me show you:

Argumentum ad antiquitatem (the argument to antiquity or tradition). This is the familiar argument that some policy, behavior, or practice is right or acceptable because "it's always been done that way."
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What that means is this. If you try to say, "well, it's always been that way, so that means it's right", you have committed the fallacy and your point is both illogical and irrelevant. In order to prove that something that has always been is correct, you actually have to prove that it is STILL correct. Since you cannot do that, your point is illogical and refuted.

And psychology has been around as long as history.
 
yobarnacle said:
Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now.”
― Arnold Joseph Toynbee


“Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.”
― Arnold Joseph Toynbee

The British historian Arnold Joseph Toynbee was born in London on 14 April 1889 and died on 22 October 1975 in York, North Yorkshire, England. He was educated at Winchester College and Balliol College, Oxford. He was the nephew of economic historian Arnold Toynbee, with whom he is sometimes confused. His first marriage to Rosalind Murray, with whom he had three sons, ended in divorce in 1946. Professor Toynbee then married Veronica M. Boulter, his research assistant.
From 1919 to 1924 Arnold J. Toynbee was professor of modern Greek and Byzantine history at King's College, London. From 1925 until 1955 Professor Toynbee served as research professor and Director of Studies at the Royal Institute of International Affairs.

Arnold Joseph Toynbee (Author of A Study of History, Abridgement of Vols 1-6)

Arnold Toynbee's A Study of History has been acknowledged as one of the greatest achievements of modern scholarship. A ten-volume analysis of the rise and fall of human civilizations, it is a work of breath-taking breadth and vision.
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No research and none of this applies to current conditions. Appeal to tradition logical fallacy.
 
cpwill said:
Yeah... I"m not so sure you can simultaneously lean on the validity and power of a majority opinion while also celebrating the effective annulment of Prop 8....
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Actually I can since the numbers show that support is growing every year and with each younger age group.
 
mac said:
Actually, history shows that these types of things fluctuate up and down.
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Over the past 15 years, things have consistently fluctuated UP.
 
mac said:
Perhaps, it may also decrease over time.
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Considering that younger demographics support it in greater numbers, this is very unlikely.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Actually I can since the numbers show that support is growing every year and with each younger age group.
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I think you missed cpwill's point. Prop 8 is a will of the people, so claiming the will of the people and applauding the prop 8 ruling is to his mind hypocrisy. There are a couple valid arguments to counter this, but you at best seriously shortcutted one.
 
mac said:
Attitudes on SSM have certainly fluctuated for and against throughout history.
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OK, mac... let's see your data on this.
 
I remember in the 60s, homosexuals wanted to be left alone, they weren't hurting anybody.

Now, they don't want to be left alone. They want EVERYBODY they can get on their side!

they are NOT content to live quietly, but want to remake society to suit themselves.

They ARE a danger to traditional American society and values, and subverting our youth.

deny these statements if you can!
 
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